ESF Air to Air Feedback for Devs

[SolLeks]

Originally Posted by Whiteagle

Well that's where problems come in.
Vehicle Combat Game-play here has to be hyper compressed in order to share the same field as Infantry Combat.
This in turn means we need vehicles scaled down to maneuver in much smaller environment.
People complain that Anti-Air fighters shouldn't just circle each other, but that's pretty much what Dogfighting IS!
The only reason you don't notice this in games like Battlefield or Ace Combat is because the circles their are much, MUCH BIGGER and you don't really get to see them from a ground perspective.


Well wait until we get Oceans, then you will see Anti-Air ESFs come into their own.

Liberators might need a slight Health Buff, but Ground Attack ESFs are suppose to be Harassment units.
Problem is, you can't flank with them right now because you only have two possible attack vectors, both being hitting the Enemy head on.

Once Aircraft are able to move outside of Continents, then you will see a need for Combat Air Patrols.

Originally Posted by Falcon_br

Air units on Planetside are harasser units, to hit weak enemy positions and leave as soon as you are hit once!
It is a cert machine only.
It can't give air support, because as soon as you start doing it the enemy will pull lots of anti air.
It is not air superiority unit because of the same problem.
Even the liberator who can soak up more damage can't give any kind of real support without running everytime it is hit.
So I really don't know where air units fit on this game, the only really reason it to increase your k/d and give you easy certs.
Don't tell it is to kill galaxy, because even using rocket pods and rotary, it does not kill it fast enough to prevent the enemy of dropping into your base!

the real problem is that AA is to powerful for the space we are in. give the bursters and G2AM less reach and air will have more of a roll again.

only thing is we will be back to infantry complaining that air is OP again... and the problems all go back to how bases are laid out...

why PS2 devs did not take more Qs from PS1 still boggles me.

[CraazyCanuck]

I think a few things need to happen before any further improvements to the air game can be had. Here’s what I had in mind.

Increased ceiling threshold. Switch Skyguard and Max burster. Make the skyguard's the true ground A2A threat while decreasing the range of the Max. Next they need to get rid of duality weapons platforms and allow focused combat for ESF. Get rid of Hovering ESF & Liberators, increase overall airspeed and introduce stalling. Allow only Gals the ability to hover, and its ability to do so is only a short period of time to execute accurate hot drops.

Change flares to munitions based platform with a magazine and reload time. It can be certed for improved capacity and reload time. Show incoming missiles on radar within a radius around your aircraft.

ESF A2G - rocketpods are gone and instead an A2G focused esf has two options for secondary.
1) Napalm/Plasma (call it what you will) (AI) - narrow area effect carpet, good damage against infantry and very weak damage vs armor/turrets. It has dot effect providing an area of denial. Small carry capacity. Certs can be used to improve area of effect and perhaps the length of the dot.
2) A2G AV lock on missiles. Short lock on, Fire and Forget missile. Limited capacity similar to the napalm. Excellent damage versus ground armor/turrets. Little damage against surrounding infantry caught in the explosion.

ESF A2A – 3 options
1) Dumbfire – equivalent to lolpods as they are now but focused dmg vs other aircraft. Improved velocity and dmg, but smaller carry capacity. Flares have no effect.
2) Medium Range A2A – lock on as they are right now without the 50% failure chance and improved velocity.
3) Long Range lock on – slower then medium range (equivalent to what the medium velocity is right now), takes longer to lock, smaller carry capacity but heavy hitter. ESF can avoid if aware enough. Meant as a liberator/gal hunter.

Nose Gun - 3 Options (these weapons will be very effective for their chosen target, and weak against all others) – AV (Tank Buster), AI (kobalt equivalent), AA (rotary/hailstorm)

Liberator – get rid of the Dalton and Zephyr. How and the hell does the aircraft even flying properly with those big heavy guns rotating around on that belly? Nose gun option is strictly AA or AV. Keeps the Tank buster but also has the option for a Rotary/Hailstorm equivalent.
Belly gunner is changed to Bombadier with various payload possibilities to allow them to focus on a particular target. Could allow a limited carry capacity for various types of bombs AI/AV/specials to be certed and carried to improve its versatility.

Specials can be various things - Napalm, AV bombs, Nanite Bombs to drop on friend armor with a large AE repair over time and its infantry equivalent. Larger versions of infantry flashbangs that work on infantry and vehicles/turrets, or improved smokescreens or their equivalent to hide friendly movements. Acid bombs that provide area denial in a larger area that effects infantry and armor both. A2A turret/mines that deploy and hover in place for a set duration.

Tail Gunner – Improved angle and rotation depending of the turret weapon chosen but. Turret Options
1) Burster AA gun
2) Medium or long range Missiles
3) Bulldog

Edit: dang lost a good chunk of my post.

[Kerrec]

Originally Posted by CraazyCanuck

I think a few things need to happen before any further improvements to the air game can be had. Here’s what I had in mind.

Increased ceiling threshold. Switch Skyguard and Max burster. Make the skyguard's the true ground A2A threat while decreasing the range of the Max. Next they need to get rid of duality weapons platforms and allow focused combat for ESF. Get rid of Hovering ESF & Liberators, increase overall airspeed and introduce stalling. Allow only Gals the ability to hover, and its ability to do so is only a short period of time to execute accurate hot drops.

Change flares to munitions based platform with a magazine and reload time. It can be certed for improved capacity and reload time. Show incoming missiles on radar within a radius around your aircraft.

ESF A2G - rocketpods are gone and instead an A2G focused esf has two options for secondary.
1) Napalm/Plasma (call it what you will) (AI) - narrow area effect carpet, good damage against infantry and very weak damage vs armor/turrets. It has dot effect providing an area of denial. Small carry capacity. Certs can be used to improve area of effect and perhaps the length of the dot.
2) A2G AV lock on missiles. Short lock on, Fire and Forget missile. Limited capacity similar to the napalm. Excellent damage versus ground armor/turrets. Little damage against surrounding infantry caught in the explosion.

ESF A2A – 3 options
1) Dumbfire – equivalent to lolpods as they are now but focused dmg vs other aircraft. Improved velocity and dmg, but smaller carry capacity. Flares have no effect.
2) Medium Range A2A – lock on as they are right now without the 50% failure chance and improved velocity.
3) Long Range lock on – slower then medium range (equivalent to what the medium velocity is right now), takes longer to lock, smaller carry capacity but heavy hitter. ESF can avoid if aware enough. Meant as a liberator/gal hunter.

Nose Gun - 3 Options (these weapons will be very effective for their chosen target, and weak against all others) – AV (Tank Buster), AI (kobalt equivalent), AA (rotary/hailstorm)

Liberator – get rid of the Dalton and Zephyr. How and the hell does the aircraft even flying properly with those big heavy guns rotating around on that belly? Nose gun option is strictly AA or AV. Keeps the Tank buster but also has the option for a Rotary/Hailstorm equivalent.
Belly gunner is changed to Bombadier with various payload possibilities to allow them to focus on a particular target. Could allow a limited carry capacity for various types of bombs AI/AV/specials to be certed and carried to improve its versatility.

Specials can be various things - Napalm, AV bombs, Nanite Bombs to drop on friend armor with a large AE repair over time and its infantry equivalent. Larger versions of infantry flashbangs that work on infantry and vehicles/turrets, or improved smokescreens or their equivalent to hide friendly movements. Acid bombs that provide area denial in a larger area that effects infantry and armor both. A2A turret/mines that deploy and hover in place for a set duration.

Tail Gunner – Improved angle and rotation depending of the turret weapon chosen but. Turret Options
1) Burster AA gun
2) Medium or long range Missiles
3) Bulldog

Edit: dang lost a good chunk of my post.

+1 from me.

[Assist]

Originally Posted by Hamma

https://twitter.com/mhigby/status/332308256179511298

Side-grades, not upgrades.

[snafus]

Please no more lock on based weapons as they only apeal to the players who can't aim properly. We need fuel tanks with cert options and a passive speed boost for equipping them. The best A2A ESF fighters will roll with fuel tanks as it gives the largest advantage in a A2A engagement. Just increase the effectiveness of the Fuel tanks and you will see a wave of A2A ESF clearing all the rocket podders and libs.

[AThreatToYou]

Personally, I think the game AS A WHOLE is better off, popularity-wise, if aircraft suck. My reasoning is that most people cannot fly, and will thusly complain their asses off if aircraft can dominate the game because they do not even have mental access to them. Another reason is that most people don't even have adequate hardware to handle the framerate that flying requires, restricting even more players from flying. Finally, aircraft require immense situational awareness and flying experience that give it a high skill ceiling due to mechanics that are commonly associated with unpopular games.

That said, I think the Liberator needs an armor buff & complete re-work. ESF A2A i don't even know why we need more A2A. Flak shotgun nose gun?

[CraazyCanuck]

Originally Posted by snafus

Please no more lock on based weapons as they only apeal to the players who can't aim properly. We need fuel tanks with cert options and a passive speed boost for equipping them. The best A2A ESF fighters will roll with fuel tanks as it gives the largest advantage in a A2A engagement. Just increase the effectiveness of the Fuel tanks and you will see a wave of A2A ESF clearing all the rocket podders and libs.

Sure I'd opt for a cert option to improve fuel pods but you can't please just one segment of skill level. You have to be able to allow people from all levels to participate else epic fail will occur. Good players will adapt as they already have to lock ons and if flares are changed to munitions based, things will be even better for those with the higher skill level and will come out on top in the majority of their engagements as it should be.

[Assist]

Maybe I'm on my own here, but I use rocket pods for A2A over lock-on missiles. A2A missiles will never kill a good pilot, they just take too long. Rocket Pods are just too good against armor, and the Liberator, to warrant using A2A missiles imo.
I think I am on my own in this matter though, because I see nothing wrong with A2A combat right now.

[Whiteagle]

Originally Posted by AThreatToYou

That said, I think the Liberator needs an armor buff & complete re-work.

Armor Buff I can agree with, rework I'm unsure of...

I mean, I like it as a Gunship, I'd want the Tail Gun to get a better firing range so it can help with its Gunship Duties.
I'd much rather bring in an additional NEW two man Fighter/Bomber based on the Liberator model that flies more like an ESF if we really need a true Bomber.
That way it can't just loiter in the air and nuke everything, it has to make bombing runs!

Originally Posted by Assist

Maybe I'm on my own here, but I use rocket pods for A2A over lock-on missiles. A2A missiles will never kill a good pilot, they just take too long. Rocket Pods are just too good against armor, and the Liberator, to warrant using A2A missiles imo.
I think I am on my own in this matter though, because I see nothing wrong with A2A combat right now.

Pretty much, but it might just be a server discrepancy, considering we Waterson players seem to be of the same opinion when it comes to Air Balance...
I know a Pilot in my outfit uses Rocketpods for AA as well...

[CraazyCanuck]

Originally Posted by Assist

Maybe I'm on my own here, but I use rocket pods for A2A over lock-on missiles. A2A missiles will never kill a good pilot, they just take too long. Rocket Pods are just too good against armor, and the Liberator, to warrant using A2A missiles imo.
I think I am on my own in this matter though, because I see nothing wrong with A2A combat right now.

I two prefer lolpods for air combat. But that's just because air is messed up. Sad state of affairs when a ground oriented weapon is better at air then the air oriented weapon.

If they're not up for major changes then atleast improve the skyguard and decrease the range of the max and I think we'd see some happier fliers. Maxes will still be effective but against those who fly low and hunt infantry in turn. Skyguards are rendered at greater distances, making the playing field somewhat more balanced.

[CraazyCanuck]

Originally Posted by Whiteagle

That way it can't just loiter in the air and nuke everything, it has to make bombing runs!

Reason I suggest to remove hover for liberators and esf. At the same time improve their air speed and add stalling. It would keep everything on the move and make it harder for aircrews to sit there and farm.

[Whiteagle]

Originally Posted by CraazyCanuck

Reason I suggest to remove hover for liberators and esf. At the same time improve their air speed and add stalling. It would keep everything on the move and make it harder for aircrews to sit there and farm.

True, but Liberators as Gunships kind of need to loiter in order to give their gunner a chance to shoot.

[Ghoest9]

Dog fighting is a total joke unless they remake the Reaver.

Its far and away the worst fighter if the weapons are balanced. The only thing it has going for it is the asymetric balance of its Air Hammer.

[CraazyCanuck]

Originally Posted by Whiteagle

True, but Liberators as Gunships kind of need to loiter in order to give their gunner a chance to shoot.

True. But instead of hover spamming the liberator will be forced either to make passes or run tight belly to target turns to maintain their position. Stalling will require improved pilot skills to make those turns without becoming a dead stick. Stalling could be similar to the on flames effect for ease of implementation by the devs. Their gunners in turn will have to adjust and bring up their skill level as well. Any good air crew does this anyways...it just brings the average skill requirement up some, which will make the ground pounders happy and give them a chance to break the lock down or require more air to actually lock down an area as they make their passes.

First time last week I encountered a coordinated air squad who implemented timed runs as opposed to hover spamming. We were regrouping after just taking splitpeak when the enemy airsquad rolled in and caught us with our pants down. We reformed and pulled dual bursters etc. They did the smart thing and made esf passes in coordination with liberator fire covering the time between to deny us the ability to break free. While we took some down, the fact they were not hanging around kept more of them in air for longer as we could not concentrate fire long enough to take them out completely without overcommitting and loosing our AA.

Edit: In order to improve things somewhat for air crews...the dalton and zephyr could receive a "slight" rate of fire buff to improve their window of opportunity on a target(s). But personally I would love to see a bomber option as opposed to the zephyr/dalton.

[Obstruction]

Increase Liberator Team to 4 positions with both A2A and A2G capability

Issues

• current choices for position 3 weaponry are limited, difficult to effectively implement, and undesirable. most libs go 2/3 and rarely use the tail.
• liberators facing a single ESF present the most credible threat by banking nose-down and exposing the main (A2G) weapon.
• A2A configuration is currently a choice that limits the team's overall effectiveness, while it should be a constant role.

Redresses

• the first position 3 buff was a positive change. it needs to go further. new weapon choices and full vertical coverage, possibly even up to 270 deg spherical.
• new weapon choices for position 3 should include the shredder and some type of lock on missle or fast reload dumbfire like the halberd.
• a 4th position should be included along the dorsal surface, like postion 2 on the galaxy. limited weapon choices here would be fair. standard basilisk/drake/walker/ranger with full coverage would be sufficient.

i realize this is an ESF A2A thread, and this is my personal Liberator SoapBox.

however, i feel justified in briefly listing these points because the current A2A game is almost wholly ESF based. furthermore, the current A2A game is almost wholly Lone Wolf ESF based.

some of my points could also apply to the Galaxy, allowing shredders on position 4 and 5 and greatly increasing the coverage, and utility, of the tail with a lockon or fast reload dumbfire option.

i feel that some positive changes to teamwork based aircraft would positively affect the overall A2A game, and would even work hand in hand with some of the great ideas already listed here.