May 21st, 2011 - Page 3

Hamma · 2011-03-15, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by Manitou

What's interesting is I am a born-again, blood-bought believer called to preach the name of Jesus Christ from His Word, as well as a "degreed" theologian and Bible student, and me and Hamma are friends.

AND similar political views as well.

Nephilimuk · 2011-03-15, 06:35 PM

it's an untruth told by an unbeliever

I saw no sign of this in reading the Hare guts this morning.

Firefly · 2011-03-15, 11:40 PM

Originally Posted by Hamma

Hey I am an Atheist and not a Liberal.

Yeah that was my particular brand of comedy.

Manitou · 2011-03-16, 06:50 AM

Originally Posted by Hamma

AND similar political views as well.

...and we like FUDGE AND GUNS.

JayC · 2011-03-16, 09:05 AM

As science evolves the arguement for religion becomes weaker and weaker. I can see the day when everyone just gives up and accepts that religion is for the naive.

This should be the case now, there's way too much science now for smart, sensible people to be religious. If you really believe that the Bible - a book written by people a million times more misguided than us - is non-fiction and that there is a God, then you are a fool.

Manitou · 2011-03-16, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by JayC

This should be the case now, there's way too much science now for smart, sensible people to be religious. If you really believe that the Bible - a book written by people a million times more misguided than us - is non-fiction and that there is a God, then you are a fool.

I consider myself smart and sensible. I have a number of friends who are PhD scientists and I feel that good observational science is an excellent tool with which to explore the creation. I don't consider myself religious, but I do have a living relationship with God through Christ. I do believe the Bible (OT through the NT) to be the inspired, inerrant, and infallible Word of God, which would mean then that I do believe there is a God.

Thus, I see that you are calling me a fool?

Raymac · 2011-03-16, 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by JayC

This should be the case now, there's way too much science now for smart, sensible people to be religious. If you really believe that the Bible - a book written by people a million times more misguided than us - is non-fiction and that there is a God, then you are a fool.

On the flip side, with everything that we know about science and mathematics, I don't see how people can believe that the universe just happened. The order we see in physics and chemistry etc. etc., all just happened without any design at all?

I just think it's amazingly foolish to think humans are the highest order of intelligence in the universe, especially with all we know now about 10+ dimensions. I mean, if there is a God, he would be on a much higher level of exisitence that we wouldn't even be able to begin to understand. It would be like trying to explain to a fish how to design a video game, it's just so far outside their realm of understanding, there would be nowhere to start.

As for the Bible, that was kind of the point of Jesus. One of his main messages was don't get so hung up on the literal letter of the word, but honor the spirit of the word. (i.e. Use your brain) And what was the spirit of the word? It's very simple, treat others as you wish to be treated.

I'm not trying to convert anyone, I never do. I just wanted to express how someone who is smart and sensible can still believe in God.

Hamma · 2011-03-16, 02:00 PM

I for one don't think that humans are the highest order of intelligence in the universe. I'm willing to bet there's plenty of other civilizations out there that came about the same way we did

JayC · 2011-03-16, 02:06 PM

I completely agree, there has to be something higher out there, but the fact that a lot of people take the Bible to be so literal is ridiculous.

Forget about God for a second, I was referring to the religion, and religious ways, I meant believing in THE God of the bible to be foolish. The fact that you think there is an all-loving, all caring God makes you a fool, not the fact that you think there is a God. I do believe there is a higher power, but to go by the word of people who say they have been spoken to by God is absolutely foolish in the highest sense of the word.

There's even a girl on YouTube who is thanking God for the Japan Earthquake, saying that he was getting rid of the Atheists and it was a blessing, not a disaster. That's fucked up, I know it's not all people, but its fucked up

You can believe in God all you want, that's fine, but to follow a religion so blindly is unbelievable, a religion that says Noah's Ark was a true story, that being Gay is wrong, condones Slavery, allows to treat women as second class citizens, and tells you to worship him or you will die a horrible, painful death and burn in the depths of hell forever sounds to me like the bad team!

I mean, how many people did God kill in the bible, according to the stories? Most of the planet, for sure. How many did Satan kill as told in the bible?

To me, there is no "God" or "Satan", there is the Universe, there is for sure life in other Galaxies, and we are a tiny part of it. We could be a molecule in the balls of another man in another Universe, for all we know. You look at Evolution and you can't help but feel we're just a really elaborate game of Pokemon.

Some of the Bible may make a lot of sense, for sure, but to follow every ideology to the last bit, which a lot of people do, is goofy

Manitou · 2011-03-16, 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by JayC

To me, there is no "God" or "Satan", there is the Universe, there is for sure life in other Galaxies, and we are a tiny part of it. We could be a molecule in the balls of another man in another Universe, for all we know. You look at Evolution and you can't help but feel we're just a really elaborate game of Pokemon.

I found this final paragraph of the most interest. You unequivocally state that to you "there is no "God" or "Satan"" and yet then you follow up with "We could be a molecule in the balls of another man in another Universe, for all we know."

Following this train of thought, "for all we know" there could be a God. Wouldn't you agree?

JayC · 2011-03-16, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by Manitou

I found this final paragraph of the most interest. You unequivocally state that to you "there is no "God" or "Satan"" and yet then you follow up with "We could be a molecule in the balls of another man in another Universe, for all we know."

Following this train of thought, "for all we know" there could be a God. Wouldn't you agree?

I don't think you understood. I'm referring to the God of the bible, the one whose "image we were created in". Anything that contains a paradox is impossible. God is the epitome of paradox, I'm sure you've heard the old "can he create a rock he cannot lift?"

I believe there are higher powers, but religions like Christianity have way too many flaws. A lot of Catholic priests are child molestors. There is a lot of evidence to the fact that the Pope has protected them and moved them around. These are the so called followers and priests of God, yet you are seen as a good person for being religious. Buddhism is the only one that promotes positivity, doesn't limit it to one God, doesn't tell you you will burn in hell unless you beg for forgiveness. God sounds a lot like a Dictator. Atheism is just as foolish as Christianity or Islam. For now, until someone proves that there IS a God, I'll always be on the side of "There could be".

There are a lot of good things about a Church environment, the ones that promote positivity, but the same book also says a lot of ridiculous things too.

JayC · 2011-03-16, 02:30 PM

Watch this, it's a very interesting theory

Raymac · 2011-03-16, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by Hamma

I for one don't think that humans are the highest order of intelligence in the universe. I'm willing to bet there's plenty of other civilizations out there that came about the same way we did

I'm sure there's other civilizations out there too. With the amount of stars out there, and our ever increasing discovery of planets around those stars, it's becoming even more likely. The one downside is that even after all these years, SETI has turned up with nothing. Thats a bit depressing, but the lack of evidence is not the evidence of lack.

What I meant though was I'm talking about a whole level of intelligence higher than our own, exisiting in another dimension that makes it near impossible for us to comprehend. God's not a Santa Claus figure living in a cloud, but our minds have to come up with some image.

Like I don't think the book of Genesis should be taken word for word, but I do find it interesting that the order of creation in Genesis is pretty dead on with how we believe the universe was created. 1) Seperated heavens and earth - Creation of matter. 2) Let there be light - Creation of stars 3) Creation of water 4) Seperation of water from land - Collection of water into seas and land becoming continents. 5) Plants begin to grow. 6) Animals begin to grow. 7) Mankind is created - Evolved from animals.

Could very likely just be a conincidence, but I find it interesting.

Manitou · 2011-03-16, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by JayC

I don't think you understood. I'm referring to the God of the bible, the one whose "image we were created in". Anything that contains a paradox is impossible. God is the epitome of paradox, I'm sure you've heard the old "can he create a rock he cannot lift?"

Okay, understood. But the concept of a paradox is a human concept, correct? It is restricted to and dependent upon natural laws. Let's assume this God is the Creator God of the Bible. It would be safe to say He would not be bound by these natural laws because He would of necessity be outside of them, correct? So a paradox would not apply to Him. He could be anywhere at once, He is not bound by time, etc.

Also, assuming He an infinitely intelligent God He would not attempt to create something that is too big for Him to pick up, since that would be silly. Just because God is capable of anything doesn't mean He will choose to do something silly. That would be a violation of His perfect grasp of logic.

Originally Posted by JayC

For now, until someone proves that there IS a God, I'll always be on the side of "There could be".

So, if "there could be" a God, that would then leave open "there could be" a God of the Bible. If that is a possibility then there is a possibility that this God is the Creator God and has the right of judgment (over His creation) for those who reject Him. Wouldn't you agree? I mean, even a human judge must render a verdict on those who reject the law whether that person agreed with it, or even believes it exists, or not (to use a somewhat weak analogy).

By the way, I am enjoying the conversation! Many times people will not be as civil when discussing these topics.

JayC · 2011-03-16, 02:55 PM

Yes, I agree. There could be a God, there could be a God of the Bible, but a lot of logic and research I have done seems to point otherwise. To you, maybe the logic seems to point that there is a God of the Bible.

You are entitled to your beliefs, and as you say you don't consider yourself religious. I am moreso against the religion, rather than people who believe there is a God. I'd be very, very silly to bash people who believe in a God as I believe there is a higher power, I just don't know what, and it would be very hypocritical of me to say you are wrong and I am right to someone who believes the same thing.

I don't think your judge thing is the best analogy (as you pointed out yourself) although I do see where you are coming from. The judge is one of us, following the laws of the people who lay it down. He doesn't condemn them because he chooses to, he does it because he has to. If the law was right in the first place, he wouldn't have to make a decision like that. If the God you are saying has infinite knowledge, he'd be crazy to condemn people who reject him if he didn't give them more guidance than he has.

If God came to me and spoke to me and proved to me that he exists, I would for sure say I believe in God. Maybe this happens when we die. This leads me to...

There are other ways of contact, I have seen the "spirit dimension" through other means, although I won't delve too much into that as it's a whole new discussion.

However, I'd like to point out that near death experiences, often related to God, involve a secretion of the molecule Dimethyltryptamine (DMT), which is produced in every single living thing in this world (and most probably others), in our case the Pineal gland, the organ in your brain so often referred to as the third eye. This secretion occurs when your body thinks it is dying, and exposing your body to the DMT through other means usually involves transporting out of your body, into this other dimension. If this happens during death, then surely this is the place we go when we die...I'll let you decide