Time to get rid of HE rounds - Page 3

ShadetheDruid · 2012-12-12, 07:49 AM

Not really related to the topic, but:

I don't think the stock gun on the Lightning is bad per se, it's just that people don't really use it properly (or at least that's been my experience anyway). It's more suited to use as a barrage weapon, rather than a tank cannon.

But the other cannons do open up a lot more possibilities, so you're probably right that the Lightning wouldn't be as useful if it couldn't specialise.

Edit: Added to that, I think the barrage ability of the stock gun would be infinitely more useful if you couldn't just drive into bases and camp with HE, but rather had to sit outside.

Infernalis · 2012-12-12, 07:51 AM

The base cannon of the lightning need a buff anyway, any of the 3 purchasable cannons are way better. I feel like they wanted to do like the cannon of the light tank (IFV to be exact) in BF3 but somehow failed.

As for the HE you have to look for the skill needed / reward / ressource cost / effectiveness, it's not a problem of players to dumb to fall to spawncamping.

Hmr85 · 2012-12-12, 07:56 AM

I myself do not have a issue with HE rounds. What I have a issue with is the horrid facility designs we have to work around.

Figment · 2012-12-12, 08:01 AM

Originally Posted by KaskaMatej

No, not an excuse, a reasoning for specialization. Not many would use Lightning tanks if there were no HE, HEAT and AP cannons (Skyguards are a different thing) because stock cannon is bad at best. IMO.

Well yeah, but specializations have to be balanced proper too. There's a huge power distance created with this specialization wrt infantry and even a smaller power distance would already be powerful enough, IMO.

I could do with three shot kills too and would already consider that a very respectful trade-off with respect to a five shot ttk. One shot just feels cheap to me. Reminds me of World of Tanks, always feel like such a bully when my Jagdtiger or Object 704 or KV-2 derp comes across slightly smaller tanks and instakills them.

KaskaMatej · 2012-12-12, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by Figment

Well yeah, but specializations have to be balanced proper too. There's a huge power distance created with this specialization wrt infantry and even a smaller power distance would already be powerful enough, IMO.

A ground vehicle has enough counters already, you just want to render them useless. A HE Lightning, for example, is very squishy (for armoured vehicle) and cannot fight off any MBT or even an AP/HEAT Lightning effectively, 10 out of 10, the HE will lose to AP if equally skilled drivers.

Then if you count in the lock-on launchers, ESF rocket pods, any Liberator belly gun, MBTs, even default rocket launchers, you will see that it has more then enough counters to be destroyed.

If you want to throw yourself at what HE counters the best, that is infantry, that is your problem and you should, are and will be punished by it.

Stop blaming HE cannons for not so optimum base design.

Assist · 2012-12-12, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by Beerbeer

I think it's time they get rid of this. It's way, way to easy to farm infantry with these things; no effort is really required. I personally find it boring as there's no challenge, but I feel compelled to do it since the certs come pouring in and I see tons of other people doing it probably for the same reason.

Considering there's really no restrictions on vehicles in this game, it's time for a change. Newbies don't want to play because some of them (at least the ones I talked to) felt like cannon fodder and didn't have fun when they came here looking for some type of FPS game where they can at least shoot their infantry guns and not get molested the instant they leave the spawn room.

I agree and I abuse them right now. The VPC for VS and HE or HEAT are way too good right now. Even defending a tech plant, being completely surrounded, you can get a shot or two off in the mag before it gets destroyed and get a good 20 kills hitting the sunderer.

I think it goes beyond just the vehicles though, rocket launchers are used way too often on Infantry. I see more and more people each day just walking around with their rocket launcher out. Almost every class that can uses the noobtubes now. Basically the skill part of the game is greatly diminished because of the mechanics of the explosives. It's the same situation with the rocketpods, just it seems to not be addressed as much.

Personally I'm in favor of doubling or tripling the cost of explosive rounds. Make the tanks cost 2x as many resources, triple the cost of grenades, give a resource cost to rockets. Rocketpod outfitted vehicles just need an increased resource cost, leave the AA ESF and Libs alone. just my 2 cents.

The other thing they could do is remove resource bonuses from the boosts, which would make it a lot easier to balance the cost of vehicles, but I doubt they'll do that considering the amount of money they're raking in with the boosts.

Figment · 2012-12-12, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by KaskaMatej

A ground vehicle has enough counters already, you just want to render them useless.

Unless you apologise for this accusation, I won't be reading a word you say anymore.

And uhm 70/1 K/Ds with Lightning HE. Yeah. Very useless if you nerf it a little. FFS man, don't you ever use the word "useless" for nerfs on weapons that are currently OHK, because why the bloody hell do we have hundreds of other weapons that DON'T OHK AND are on more squishy targets!?

If you want a bloody farm tool, go live on a ranch!

FFS, requiring a couple shots won't make it useless at all! The HEAT is already powerful enough, if you can't kill with that, then you just suck. As I said, if a HEAT is fine with five shots against infantry - AND IT BLOODY WELL IS! - then three shots HE would suffice as a trade-off, where one shotting is a huge power difference: 5 shots or 1, that's FOUR difference. 5 shots or 3 shots, that's TWO difference. THAT'S STILL MAKING IT MORE USEFUL AGAINST INFANTRY. Don't you ever use the word useless again until you look it up in a dictionary!

Dragonskin · 2012-12-12, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by Figment

It's just as easy to use in the field. They're both problems. :/

Radius increase should come with damage drop-off increase.

AND WHERE ARE OUR EMP GRENADES?!

302 Found

Is that you in the video Figment?

KaskaMatej · 2012-12-12, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by Figment

Unless you apologise for this accusation, I won't be reading a word you say anymore.

Originally Posted by Figment

And uhm 70/1 K/Ds with Lightning HE. Yeah. Very useless if you nerf it a little. FFS man, don't you ever use the word "useless" for nerfs on weapons that are currently OHK, because why the bloody hell do we have hundreds of other weapons that DON'T OHK AND are on more squishy targets!?

HE cannons, good at one thing, and one thing only, killing infantry. And you want to nerf them so they wouldn't be good on infantry any more.

Originally Posted by Figment

If you want a bloody farm tool, go live on a ranch!

I don't even have HE cannons on Magrider or Lightning. I don't want it nerfed not because I own it but because I know how not to get continuously killed by it.

Originally Posted by Figment

FFS, requiring a couple shots won't make it useless at all! The HEAT is already powerful enough, if you can't kill with that, then you just suck. As I said, if a HEAT is fine with five shots against infantry - AND IT BLOODY WELL IS! - then three shots HE would suffice as a trade-off, where one shotting is a huge power difference: 5 shots or 1, that's FOUR difference. 5 shots or 3 shots, that's TWO difference. THAT'S STILL MAKING IT MORE USEFUL AGAINST INFANTRY. Don't you ever use the word useless again until you look it up in a dictionary!

No, the default cannon on Lightnings is bad. It also has 6 shots per reload so it shows you don't really know how bad the cannon actually is. It has the splash of an AP round. It has more drop than an old lady's ball throw. It does pitiful damage on infantry not to mention on vehicles. It has long reload time.

Maybe you should look in the dictionary to see what useless means and what you're trying to HE rounds to do.

Figment · 2012-12-12, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by KaskaMatej

"I'm a horrible shot and terribly unskilled at aiming even with a terribly forgiving medium splash 6 clip weapon, let alone daring to engage another, weaker unit in direct combat, hence I need to have high splash OHK weapons on infantry, because I couldn't possibly be expected to land three shots in the vicinity of an infantry unit."

[/ignore KaskaMatej]

Thanks for making that very easy.

Figment · 2012-12-12, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by Dragonskin

Is that you in the video Figment?

Nah Bobbyshaftoe, good allround player.

I didn't play fishhead.

Phoenix was more difficult to pull this off with, hence we would use Decimators for that, or sit behind a tree or hill firing Phoenixes over it from cover (Phoenix was camera guided).

Dragonskin · 2012-12-12, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by Figment

Nah Bobbyshaftoe, good allround player.

I didn't play fishhead.

Phoenix was more difficult to pull this off with, hence we would use Decimators for that, or sit behind a tree or hill firing Phoenixes over it from cover (Phoenix was camera guided).

Interesting.. the video highlights a 1 man army aspect. Is that your goal for this game then? 1 infantry unit can take on vehicles of all sorts solo? That would make a lot of sense with the changes you are purposing.

Figment · 2012-12-12, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by Dragonskin

Interesting.. the video highlights a 1 man army aspect. Is that your goal for this game then? 1 infantry unit can take on vehicles of all sorts solo? That would make a lot of sense with the changes you are purposing.

Haha 1 man army with a Punisher/AV? Hardly!

1. Weaponry. Punisher was the worst MA rifle available. It's only redeeming feature was cheap and a grenade launcher for EMPs (the rocket, frag and plasma it could fire were pretty darn useless with 1/6th health per shot and the rifle itself was worse than the three ES rifles).

He would be toast the moment an infantry unit would show, he'd miss the tank, an aircraft would pop in, the tank tried to drive over him. You can in fact see that he was quickly dispatched by one infantry.

2. Inventory space. There's a big trade-off made here. Since he brings some ammo for his Punisher (seperate boxes for EMPs and bullets) and needs space for his Lancer, he can not bring many medkits, other tools like engineer or med ap (if he had those), he'd not be able to last very long doing that role. He'd quickly run dry. We didn't have cheap ass ammo box drops like the engi in PS2 then.

This setup shown is aimed at minimum survival in the field and focuses entirely on using third person to get the drop on vehicles. Which is the only thing he can effectively target, since the Lancer as you see there, requires a lot of hits on infantry to even try to kill. Any infantry with even the weakest of weapons would easily dispatch of him in an engagements, unless they'd suck horribly.

3. On top of that, you have to consider that in order to have access to AV, he didn't have access to something else in ANY other life. PS2 is far closer to 1 man army's with the class setup where you can change unit and class at will, than PS1 up till BR40 was introduced. I absolutely hate the BR40 concept just for the 1 man army reason you mention. All players had to make choices prior to (reaching) BR40 in what kinds of weaponry they could or could not use in all of their lifes. The ones they picked they could freely combine.

You'd have 26 points to spend on a list of what, 50 certs, where each cert cost between 1 and 4 points, with some exceptions at 5 and 8. Most were 3. So basically you could pick around 12, 13 certs per character. If you take my character, I couldn't fly, didn't have AV, didn't have tanks, didn't have buggies or AA, didn't have medical equipment or heavy assault guns. Why? Because I specialised in hacking, AMS, amphibious transportation, infiltration and engineering. The remaining points I spent on something cheap like ATV and the rexo suit (kinda like HA in PS2, without the guns: guns sold seperately

).

However, I'm highly in favour of creative use of inventory and combining weapons.

But FFS man, to call EMP + AV 1 man army... You really should have played PS1 some, you'd be emberassed about even suggesting that. :x

Dragonskin · 2012-12-12, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by Figment

He would be toast the moment an infantry unit would show, he'd miss the tank, an aircraft would pop in, the tank tried to drive over him. You can in fact see that he was quickly dispatched by one infantry.

He does kill infantry in that video. I didn't play PS1, but you can't deny that video coming off as 1 man army.. even if it was cut/edited to show that.. it's exactly what it does.

Figment · 2012-12-12, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by Dragonskin

He does kill infantry in that video. I didn't play PS1, but you can't deny that video coming off as 1 man army.. even if it was cut/edited to show that.. it's exactly what it does.

And HA in PS2 kills tanks and infantry alike faster than he could with either that AV or MA rifle.

So not really seeing your point here.

If he killed someone with a Pwnisher, which was a hell of a feat what with a slower TTK of several shots, the man should be rewarded a medal, not scrutinised for OP.

It was 0.2 seconds slower against normal infantry and even 0.5 seconds slower at killing a rexo than the ES rifles.

http://www.reocities.com/doaclandoa/weaponsttk.html