Will everyone have access to some AV/anti-MAX weaponry? - Page 3

Redshift · 2011-07-27, 08:50 AM

Originally Posted by FriendlyFire

PS1 relies too heavily on the Deci. By offering so many AV/anti-MAX weapons they cheapened the MAX role. MAXs should be the ultimate, anti-infantry, choke point attack/defend unit. They are not self sufficient and should be allowed advantages over normal infantry load outs.

but that will that not just make infantry combat inside slow and dull, they're trying to speed it up

FriendlyFire · 2011-07-27, 09:10 AM

What I was suggesting is, for infantry to rely on HA "specialists" instead of spamming Deci ammo. This will also allow for MAX "specialists."

I like what I read in another post (rephrased): instead of relying on rock, paper, scissors, bring your best rock, best paper and your best scissors.

FIREk · 2011-07-27, 10:23 AM

All infantry units should have _some_ sort of counter against MAX units and vehicles. Someone suggested grenades, which would supposedly be weak, but able to harm a MAX if timed right (let's say it's explode on contact).

Since all squishies can be hurt by anything, it would be unfair to make MAXes the only rock-paper-scissors unit, one that needs an exact counter in the form of a dedicated AV trooper or AV MAX.

Can you imagine defending a base entrance, when suddenly a MAX (or two) bust in through the main door and you have absolutely no means to do anything but run or hide? I would rather not...

I would prefer to hurt it, even if it's risky and won't do much damage (since I would be using a sub-par weapon).

Serious AV weapons should be limited to dedicated AV classes, but some counter to vehicles and MAXes should be available to anyone. A tank can't just waltz through infantry unmolested. Even if none are an AV class, a dozen infantry with pointed sticks should make a tank think twice before recklessly attacking them.

FriendlyFire · 2011-07-27, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by FIREk

All infantry units should have _some_ sort of counter against MAX units and vehicles. Someone suggested grenades, which would supposedly be weak, but able to harm a MAX if timed right (let's say it's explode on contact).

Since all squishies can be hurt by anything, it would be unfair to make MAXes the only rock-paper-scissors unit, one that needs an exact counter in the form of a dedicated AV trooper or AV MAX.

Can you imagine defending a base entrance, when suddenly a MAX (or two) bust in through the main door and you have absolutely no means to do anything but run or hide? I would rather not...

I would prefer to hurt it, even if it's risky and won't do much damage (since I would be using a sub-par weapon).

Serious AV weapons should be limited to dedicated AV classes, but some counter to vehicles and MAXes should be available to anyone. A tank can't just waltz through infantry unmolested. Even if none are an AV class, a dozen infantry with pointed sticks should make a tank think twice before recklessly attacking them.

Any situation can be made to sound as bad (or good) if the right examples are used.

A well rounded team, attacking or defending, should always be stronger than a group of random, unorganized, players.

I.E. As you spawn, three people choose MAX load outs and head in the same direction. It would probably be best to grab your Engineer loadout/class and help repair them.

MAXs will almost always have an Engineer and/or Medic. MAXs will not be self sustaining in PS2. The counter should be to keep them from being healed/repaired.

FIREk · 2011-07-27, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by FriendlyFire

Any situation can be made to sound as bad (or good) if the right examples are used.

A well rounded team, attacking or defending, should always be stronger than a group of random, unorganized, players.

Stronger is one thing, constantly getting steamrolled as a random, unorganized player, is another. And steamrolling is what happens when an organized team figures out how unstoppable MAXes are if the opposition doesn't have a specific counter.

An advantage is fine, but if random players (which PS2 needs, as a game) keep hitting walls on a regular basis, even though they have individual FPS skill, they end up with a game that keeps punishing them.

This is what happens in APB and is possibly one of the reasons why people cheat there so eagerly.

You give a player any sort of counter against anything - he goes down fighting. Give him nothing - he goes down powerless and eventually feels cheated. He may learn and eventually start playing as an AV trooper, but he may quit the game entirely, before he has a chance to learn.

FriendlyFire · 2011-07-27, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by FIREk

Stronger is one thing, constantly getting steamrolled as a random, unorganized player, is another. And steamrolling is what happens when an organized team figures out how unstoppable MAXes are if the opposition doesn't have a specific counter.

An advantage is fine, but if random players (which PS2 needs, as a game) keep hitting walls on a regular basis, even though they have individual FPS skill, they end up with a game that keeps punishing them.

This is what happens in APB and is possibly one of the reasons why people cheat there so eagerly.

You give a player any sort of counter against anything - he goes down fighting. Give him nothing - he goes down powerless and eventually feels cheated. He may learn and eventually start playing as an AV trooper, but he may quit the game entirely, before he has a chance to learn.

PS2 should be balanced around team work not "OMGMUHMIZZILZPWNEVRYTHNG." It sounds like PS2 is going to be a team based game and not balanced around being a Super Soldier. We are essentially saying the same thing. With the class system players will have the opportunity to "balance" their side.

Just to be clear, I am not wanting MAXs to be one man, indoor, tanks, but I think the balancing should be done so they can fill their role and excel at it. Just like HA/AV/MED/ENG excel at their roles.

I agree with Malorn.

FIREk · 2011-07-27, 11:57 AM

Just to clarify, I don't want to resurrect the current everyone_has_badass_AV_on_their_back scheme. I don't want universal super-soldiers.

My point is to give everyone a pathetic (when compared to proper AV weaponry) counter to MAXes and vehicles, so that a room full of grunts will be able to kill a reckless MAX or two, at the cost of ignoring any infantry that may have flooded in behind them.

Whether it's a grenade, a light rocket launcher (RPG/LAW-ish) or AP ammo, I don't care. I just want _something_ to even the odds, and don't want the MAX to be the only infantry class that needs a specific counter-class to be killed, unlike every other class.

Effective · 2011-07-29, 10:00 AM

Fun fact about max units currently in PS1, every max in the game has a faster TTK then the decimator (6 seconds), so for all the people who are complaining about the decimator being to powerful (or something like that), DIAF please.

Reduce all max units into 1 suit with interchangeable weapons, reduce price of max unit + weapons, reduce effectiveness vs. infantry with AA/AV weapons, remove armor healing from medical terminals, make AV/AP ammo do health damage to max units. Then add a GOOD infantry held counter for max units OR a max unit that won't suicide due to splash damage, yet can still kill several max units (think the original TR DC max).

There should be LESS max units, not more. There needs to be BETTER max counters, not worse. Currently the RPS concept for PS1 is broken (especially with the addition of extra BR). My biggest issue with max units is that it makes it nearly impossible to physically push enemy bases when you have less pop then said enemies, because all they have to do is just pull max unit after max unit after max unit, to drive you out of their base. I find max units dumb down teamwork rather then enhance it.

Worried about choke points that max units are needed for? Make bases and fighting areas less crowded and reduce the number of narrow hallways, encourage MA rifle usage. Easy solution is easy

As for the "super solider comments", reduce battle rank back to BR20, increase cert costs for various certs, easy solution is easy. Give players the option to solo still if they don't want to play with a group, but make them pay the price for those certs. Being able to self-repair/heal yourself without screaming like a little girl for a heal and still have some fighting ability was one of the things I enjoyed about PS1.

Back on topic, the lancer is the best AV in the game, the striker is the most useless AV in the game, and the phoenix is awesome indoors or in groups of 5 or more.

Vancha · 2011-07-28, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by FriendlyFire

MAXs will not be self sustaining in PS2.

Source?

Of course you're probably right, but I think people are being far too assumptive in here.

We don't know what MAXs will be weak against, we don't know how fast they'll move and we don't know whether any of them will be specialized for an AI role...

Yes, they probably will be AV-weak, slow and capable of killing infantry, but with the new pace of the game and the new weapons, assuming the only decent counter will be AV weapons seems a little premature...and if it ends up that MAXs run riot against anything without a rocket launcher, it'd probably be changed in beta.

Sovereign · 2011-07-28, 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by Vancha

Source?

Of course you're probably right, but I think people are being far too assumptive in here.

One who makes a definitive claim of the like should always provide some source or backing regardless...

Besides have any of the devs even divulged any information in regards to maxes? I think not, certainly not from the last panel they've been in..

animagic · 2011-07-27, 01:24 PM

The biggest problem with AV in PS1 wasnt the fact that everyone could have it. Yes, this is true, but it was large and you couldnt carry much ammo for it especially if it was a second or third weapon in your backpack. Personally, I carried 1 Deci in every loadout and had a seperate loadout with all Pheonixes, nothing else. It worked well in PS1, giving me enough AV to take out a max if he was alone, or enough AV to take out a tank/multiple maxes if I had support.

The problem was that everyone wanted to be a superhero, running into CCs with their silly max suits all by themselves, or running around with their tank and just a gunner. No supporting elements helping them, and then they cried and felt weak and useless because they didnt value the usefullness of teamwork. Regardless of what people thought, the actuality of the game was that AV wasnt really very strong at all. It was the inability to work together that brought silly maxes down.

I've seen a group of guys in pajamas in a spawn room, freshly spawned, take out a max with their Suppressors (sp?) just by using standard ammo. I've also been one of those freshly spawned guys quick enough to run to the terminal, grab my standard Grunt loadout with 1 Deci and run off through a door before the max could turn fast enough to kill me, then swing back through and kill him without a thought. It was pitiful, yet the lone idiot sitting in a spawn room by himself or doing other similar stupid things thus whines about "balance" and why his super max suit cant stand up to a grunt is simply because of teamwork.

Learn it. Embrace it. Live it, and you will be much the better.

Rbstr · 2011-07-28, 03:00 PM

I don't get what the problem is. If MAXes are good vs. infantry, people will use them. If the AV is strong vs. MAXes (combined with non-av not being very good against them) and MAXes are present people will use it.

If you're a party of infantry without AV and you run into some maxes...why shouldn't you get stomped? It's your own damn fault for not bringing any AV. MAx kills normal infantry, infantry kills AV troops, AV troops kill maxes.

Substitute Max for vehicle or tank and it still works. I don't get the problem here.

FriendlyFire · 2011-07-28, 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by Rbstr

I don't get what the problem is. If MAXes are good vs. infantry, people will use them. If the AV is strong vs. MAXes (combined with non-av not being very good against them) and MAXes are present people will use it.

If you're a party of infantry without AV and you run into some maxes...why shouldn't you get stomped? Its you're own damn fault for not bringing any AV. MAx kills normal infantry, infantry kills AV troops, AV troops kill maxes.

Substitute Max for vehicle or tank and it still works. I don't get the problem here.

This.

FIREk · 2011-07-28, 05:19 PM

I think you're viewing this from a narrow perspective. Not everyone will be part of a pre-organized squad/platoon.

If you're a random player in a random squad, why should you be the AV guy (and possibly be gimped during most of the fight)? Who decides that, and who exactly is to blame when MAXes steamroll through your group? Was everyone stupid? Would everyone be stupid if too many people chose an AV class that is less effective against regular infantry? Should randoms be punished because they play the game on a different level? I don't think so.

Hopefully MAXes won't be near-impervious to small arms fire. If they are, they would be the only infantry class that needs a direct counter, and that would just be wrong.

Raymac · 2011-07-28, 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by FIREk

I think you're viewing this from a narrow perspective. Not everyone will be part of a pre-organized squad/platoon.

If you're a random player in a random squad, why should you be the AV guy (and possibly be gimped during most of the fight)? Who decides that, and who exactly is to blame when MAXes steamroll through your group? Was everyone stupid? Would everyone be stupid if too many people chose an AV class that is less effective against regular infantry? Should randoms be punished because they play the game on a different level? I don't think so.

Hopefully MAXes won't be near-impervious to small arms fire. If they are, they would be the only infantry class that needs a direct counter, and that would just be wrong.

Don't take this the wrong way, but from my point of view, it looks like you are viewing it from a narrow perspective. Planetside isn't about 1 squad versus another, it's about squads upon squads of people all battling each other. So across that many people, you will see different "classes". It happens naturally just as it does in Planetside.

So for example, if you are defending a base, you see a Commander shout out, "Incoming Max Crash" well a certain number of people will switch to their loadout to counter the Maxes. Obviously not everyone will run and grab a deci, but if enough people do, the MCT fails, if enough people don't the MCT will crush. Not everything has to be totally organized to still work, in fact the chaos is part of the fun.