So does anyone else think the class system has failed?

[Ghoest9]

No.

It has not "failed" at all.

It lacks some cool aspects of PS 1 - but even so it is a good functioning system.
If i was making a game from scratch i would go the PS1 route - but the route they chose for Ps2 does not make it a bad game at all.

[xSlideShow]

I agree I think they are making a mistake the more I play it. Really they are copying something when they had a great position in the past. They are in fact taking away something they could be using to their advantage by having a free form inventory. Even if it was hard to balance, from a merely marketing standpoint they would do better.

No other FPS that I know of has had such a thing. And it's aspect for this kind of game to have. Also it would appear to be a very strong spot in the minds of many players of Planetside 1. I think they would be wise to relook some of their decisions.

[Rolfski]

Coming from BF3, I have no problem with it. I think it works well in team play as you easily adapt squad tactics to the situation ("lets go all heavies to take out that tank column")

[Redshift]

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Coming from BF3, I have no problem with it. I think it works well in team play as you easily adapt squad tactics to the situation ("lets go all heavies to take out that tank column")

Thats exactly the opposite of proper teamwork, that's a bunch of people picking whatever kills the nearest thing to the terminal.

That's just shallow mindless zerging, it will not keep people interested for long periods of time

[Figment]

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Coming from BF3, I have no problem with it. I think it works well in team play as you easily adapt squad tactics to the situation ("lets go all heavies to take out that tank column")

That isn't squad tactics, that's being forced into a role, as you could otherwise not compete. Meanwhile you can't support others with another needed role.

True squad tactics ia about being able to setup for a variety of likely situations you may come across and planning ahead. Not react to what happens to be there and having to react in predictable ways. Certainly not about making your own unique contributions to the team effort.

The thing that isn't stimulated by this class system is creativity or "the way YOU want to play". Which as I recall, was the one thing Smedley said the game would do for you.

Right now, the class system does anything but let me play the way I want to or adapt to even a short string of situations.

[PClownPosse]

Originally Posted by Figment

That isn't squad tactics, that's being forced into a role, as you could otherwise not compete. Meanwhile you can't support others with another needed role.

True squad tactics ia about being able to setup for a variety of likely situations you may come across and planning ahead. Not react to what happens to be there and having to react in predictable ways. Certainly not about making your own unique contributions to the team effort.

The thing that isn't stimulated by this class system is creativity or "the way YOU want to play". Which as I recall, was the one thing Smedley said the game would do for you.

Right now, the class system does anything but let me play the way I want to or adapt to even a short string of situations.

I agree. This is my biggest gripe as well, at least from what I've seen so far (which isn't much to be honest). There's really no ability for people to be either wide open in capabilities/equipment or to be extremely focused in regards to what you can equip. I really dislike the take it or leave it classifications.

[texico]

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Coming from BF3, I have no problem with it. I think it works well in team play as you easily adapt squad tactics to the situation ("lets go all heavies to take out that tank column")

You may not realize if you haven't played PS1, but the Inventory system lets you do that anyway if that's what you want. All your squad can just save a "heavy" loadout in the "favourite" tab and load it up instantly at a terminal, EXACTLY like you would with the current class system.


Seriously, I've made this point a couple of times, but there is nothing to gain from the class system in terms of playstyle; anybody wanting to play a stereotypical "class" (for example medic) with the Inventory System can just build an inventory with all the typical weapons and equipment a medic would have and save it in one of the Favourites slots. THAT is a "class" system right there.

[james]

My only problem with the class system as it seems only 2 classes are really worth playing, heavy assault, and engineer. The lmg from playing with it is just better. And the max some times

[Hmr85]

The more I play PS2 the more I miss the old PS1 style setup. So much more versatility. Being confined to 5 select roles without the ability to truly customize your character is somewhat depressing. I miss my old Spec op configs and HA load outs. :/

[Mox]

I would suggest a system with equipment slots. Something a little more flexible than the class system

[Crator]

I think they could keep the class system but still allow players to mix-n-match certain equipment from other classes using load-outs. The limiting factor being battle rank. This would allow for more control over the items that can be used in this fashion. They could also make the cross-class items work in a lesser fashion then they do if using it under the main class.

[Rolfski]

Originally Posted by texico

You may not realize if you haven't played PS1, but the Inventory system lets you do that anyway if that's what you want. All your squad can just save a "heavy" loadout in the "favourite" tab and load it up instantly at a terminal, EXACTLY like you would with the current class system.

Well, if the old system did allow for quick swapping load-outs to respond to multiple situations (which imo is a part of squad tactics), what would be the reason then for SOE to change this? There sure must be some advantage within this class system, right?

[Figment]

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Well, if the old system did allow for quick swapping load-outs to respond to multiple situations (which imo is a part of squad tactics), what would be the reason then for SOE to change this? There sure must be some advantage within this class system, right?

The sole reason they changed it, was the complaint of "universal soldiers" and generic setups. That included advanced medics and engineers healing and repairing (we had armour to be repaired instead of shields) players at the same time (technically they still had to switch out gear, but they could do the both with the same suit setup).

What those complaints didn't say was that those people doing that, had to give up valuable inventory space for that: less ammo, more support items or more variety of ammo reducing overall ammo per weapon type. They generalised at the cost of sustained fire or usage in any specialty, including guns.

Now, the reason that these occured in PS1 was because of developers not listening to players on several key points when they made changes to the game. Because initially, this didn't happen a lot as players simply could not afford it: it would cost too many certification points to specialise in several support roles. If they did nonetheless, they were dependend on other players in terms of vehicles and other support certs, or in terms of other weapons.


Now, the problem started a little during BR20, but was well under control. At BR20, you had 26 cert points at maximum level (note: you would start with 4 at BR1 iirc, you would get one implant slot at BR6, 12 and 18).

The complained setup was (Advanced [+2cp]) Medic [3cp], Engineer [3cp], Medium Assault [2cp] and Heavy Assault [4cp], Reinforced Exosuit [3cp], Mosquito [3cp] (maybe Reaver [2cp], some would include Anti-Vehicular [3cp] in that as well). That setup cost you (2+) 3, 3, 2+4, 3, 3 (+2 +3) certifications, or a total of 18-25 points total. That's actually already 69.2% without the certs in brackets, to 96.1% of their entire potential of certifications and left them with 8 to 1 free certifications to make their character a bit more unique (!).

That's not a lot more to work with and they therefore were generalists, but very dependent on others. Hence why most people didn't really make their setup like this at the time, but chose a bit more unique setup, often staying with basic medic (no reviving) and picking Combat Engineering (2cp - spitfires and mines) or other weapons (sniping [3cp] or grenade launchers [3cp]) or hacking support certs (3 + 2 cp) and of course all kinds of other vehicles.

As you can tell however, most of these people could not afford swift hacking (3-5 points) and without Anti-Vehicular, they'd be hardpressed to kill MAXes indoors unless they had proper heavy assault bullets loaded (gold ammo).

Typical implants were Surge and Audio Amplifier for this setup with an extra slot. But really, there were no other guns to specialise into aside from Sniper Rifles or Grenade Launchers as all medium weapons were in ONE certificate of 2 points called Medium Assault and all heavy weapons in ONE certificate called Heavy Assault. So it's not really surprising that a lot of people opted for the 2+4 cert as a basis. So how can one possibly complain about that simply because lack of choice made sure everyone had the same-ish guns?

If you wanted to cert into infiltration, you'd spend about 80% of your certs into infiltration usable/related support items, weapons and vehicles and all your implants on that.

Similarly, if you went infantry + full engineer + tanks, being a medic or pilot wasn't really that much of an option. A lot of people couldn't even afford the Reinforced Exosuit, let alone a MAX suit. Typically it was OR OR, not AND AND. Above all though, many could not afford a lot of personal transportation and therefore group transport units were not just viable, they were well used. Of course aircraft were used a lot, but they weren't used almost exclusively as at some points later in the game.



Now, where things started to go wrong was BR23-25. They added some more certifications points both for new players AND for the ranks 21-23. 24 gave a new cosmetic hat and BR25 a new cosmetic suit. Even if you liked having an all gold NC armour *sniff*.

Anyway. The reason they did this was because they wanted to give new players a bit more of a chance to try things out and give them some more options, while adding in new equipment as well. The devs idea then was that since people would need to get access to the new equipment - which was highly specialised due to the entire support tree for hacking and engineering in total now costing 10 points - people would need more cert points. What they forgot is that where 4/26 points was 15% of your certifications, with half a dozen more points available (and Rexo becoming free!), suddenly expensive certifications like Heavy Assault would become FAR MORE CHEAPER.

It meant that far MORE people gained access to the following certifications because they could now afford it:

- MAXes (even UniMAX [6cp], all three MAX suits: AA [2cp]/AV[3cp] and especially AI [3cp] at a discount)
- Heavy Assault [4cp]
- Aircav (Mosquito and Reaver)
- BFRs [8cp on top of tanks]
- Advanced Medic [5cp total]
- Advanced Hacking [5cp total], till then had been a true specialty mostly used by infiltrators

Now note that certs in PS1 are, unlike the class system in PS2, not related to suits (aside from purchasing their availability), but related to your character. They are innate abilities and can use them as long as you hold the proper gear.

Then later, they made the Reaver even cheaper, as if it wasn't overused already, by adding it as an end of the line option for buggies/mosquito combi cert. That again freed up extra cert points. By this time, most every player had their own transport, but still at least group vehicles like tanks, amphibious APCs and buggies had some redeeming qualities as not everyone could afford personal transports and even if they could, they'd be less powerful.

Then later, they said they'd thought about adding BR40. Now at first, BR40 was supposed to be about bragging rights. The community had explicitly stated to the devs that there should not be more certifications handed out, because the game was already at balance breaking point. SOE promised they'd not add more certification points.


Then when BR40 was actually introduced, every two ranks, you gained a new certification point... That was stupid as hell already. But wait, there was more! It was hinted there'd be a special reward at BR40. So veterans were laughing and said "A merit badge! Or maybe one free support vehicle like an AMS? Cause they wouldn't be stupid enough to give out all weapons, vehicles and suits and support certifications etc at once, now would they?".


And what happened? They did... (Note, that 'dev', since there was only one responsible for that, is still working on PS2). Now, as I said before, a lot of these things are innate abilities. So suddenly regardless of who got to the control console, you'd only have 20 seconds to keep it from being rehacked. Before, you knew to just kill the guy with the blue beam, because everyone else took a minute to hack it. It changed everything.

Suddenly, MAXes all over the place. Suddenly Aircraft all over the place. Suddenly, next to nobody used Agile suits (unless pilot or driver) or medium assault, since everyone had free rexos and cheap Heavy Assault. Everyone had their own transport, so transport units, which were already somewhat obsolete since BR23, were now rendered completely useless were it not for some situational redeeming features that had little to do with their original group transport design (like minefield sweeping with an EMP blast).

Now of course, at this time you would have a lot of setups that literally could do every support role. That had access to every vehicle. They now had jacks of all trades. And yes, that's a huge complaint from the PS1 veteran base. :/


THAT was the problem with the PS1 cert system: the second and third generation (if not third and fourth generation) of SOE developers for PS1 simply had no clue to what they were doing in terms of certification balance. The rest of the original team had either been fired, or had left in anger without knowledge transfer in either case.


So this new generation of developers, is actually the what, seventh generation of PS developers? They have absolutely no idea about the original intentions behind all the systems of PlanetSide 1 and how it worked in practice. You can tell by watching the design process take shape and how they then have to be called back by players on rather basic things at times. :/

The problem hence is, they heard complaints about "jacks of all trades" and went "oh then we must prevent any and all overlap" as a knee-jerk reaction to this complaint mentioned earlier. But the problem is not "some overlap where you can do some things in one life and a couple more things over multiple lifes" (BR20), or perhaps not even "some overlap where you can do some things in one life and quite a few things over multiple lifes" (BR23-25), but it's being able to "do far too many things in the same life and everything in multiple lives" (BR40). The system we got now is "far too little in the same life and everything in multiple lives".


Does that explain it? What bothers me is the people that pretend BR40 or even the BR25 situation is all there's ever been and misrepresenting the issue with the system.

Could some exclusivity to suit types have helped the system be better? Yes. That would be a proper refining of the free-cert system, a little bit closer to classes, but it wouldn't be an overreaction. What I find really annoying, is that the multiple-life issue is worsened and often completely ignored by those same people, since they only look at what you can do in ONE life. At least in PS1 not everyone is a BR40 from the start...



________________________________


So to sum up certs and classes from many a veteran's perspective:

• Balanced PS1 (BR20): some overlap in one life, limited amount of additional options over multiple lives
• Okay, but at breaking point PS1 (BR23-25): quite some overlap in one life, quite a few more options over multiple lifes
• Broken PS1 (BR40): lots of overlap in one life, full options over multiple lives
• Flawed overreaction PS2 (Classes): no overlap in one life, full options over multiple lives

[Shogun]

the free form inventory of ps1 was superior to the class system.

the only problem was the br40 jack of all trades issue!

now we are restricted to just one role. one very very small role, like evilhomer stated.
this sucks balls.
especially engineer and medic are very disappointing!
in ps1 a dedicated engineer could totally protect a base with a big field of CE like 25 spitfires AND 25 mines AND 25 sensors. now engineers are limited to a single mine OR one manaturret (that cannot even autoshoot or be operated by anyone else) OR something else.
and to make it totally useless the stuff even disappears when you change the class.

engineer is a total failure! and my favorite playstyle has died with it.

same goes for infiltrator. the ps1 infiltrator playstyle is not existant any more.
my second favorite playstyle!
infiltrators need things to hack, only small weapons and a infinite cloak similar to the ps1 cloak.

i would still prefer to get rid of the classes and go back to ps1 style.
there surely are other ways to prevent the heavy armor av pilots with repair and medic tool one man armies without restricting the legit playstyles.

[Hamma]

Originally Posted by Malorn

I think its working out fine.

Likewise - I don't think it has failed at all.