Ability to toggle 1st/3rd person - Page 3

Figment · 2012-04-11, 12:21 PM

Combat driving without third person view? Yay rocks. Yay getting stuck in terrain. Yay having to get out to see where you're stuck.

*meanwhile in the air*

HAHA LOOK AT THE STATIONARY TARGETS ALL AROUND ME. =D

Situational awareness for all, or for nobody. Tbh. Least we need is ability to look around and learn what is behind us, where and how far (I doubt we get rearview mirrors). How the hell are you going to make proper driving decisions otherwise? Why create tunnelvision? It's not like we will get sensory feedback from our fingers for instance. Fear we can't turn our heads all the way back nor look out the window.

Talek Krell · 2012-04-11, 06:55 PM

Having made a minor career of flying Liberators through forests at full speed, I can pretty well get behind having third person for aircraft. The relatively high speed and low hitpoints make it a night and day difference for me when compared to tanks, which I never had to worry so much about hitting trees with.

What I did often use third person for in tanks was claiming a frankly unfair advantage over anyone attempting to boomer or hack me by using that viewpoint to watch all sides of my vehicle simultaneously. It may be that you can exploit the camera in both vehicle types, but I think the problem would be far more common in ground than air vehicles.

Metalsheep · 2012-04-11, 07:18 PM

Personally i LIKED the 3rd person view in Planetside. I never felt like using it to peek corners and such was abusive. Its simply using a tool the game developers gave you in an intelligent way. Why else would they have left 3rd person in. You cant aim in 3rd person, or turn the camera to see your character. I can only assume it was for Situational Awareness. Im sad to see it go.

I makes me curious how now, as a Softie i am supposed to be able to check corners, walls and other obsticals for Instant Death like Boomers, Tanks camping, or an Incomeing MAX before it splatters me.

But i do agree that if Aircraft get 3rd person, so should Tanks and other Ground Vehicles, driving in First Person is very difficult and disorienting since your vision is fixed forwards. You cant check your rear or sides, and i could see how the Mag Rider and other Hovering vehicles may have even bigger issues without third person. And saying that Aircraft need 3rd person to see how high they are or not clip their wings seems like a weak arguement. There is no altitude meter/indicator on your HUD? And most of the aircraft are quite sleek and have very small wingspans. (Except the Scythe/Lib maybe. I havent seen their width compared to the Mossie/Reaver)

All vehicles should get third person, not just aircraft. Id even prefer infantry also get it, but that wont happen it seems.

Bitmap · 2012-04-11, 07:42 PM

Originally Posted by Metalsheep

You cant aim in 3rd person,

You don't need to aim with a Jackhammer/SplatMAX, hence 3rdPV's removal.

Xyntech · 2012-04-11, 07:51 PM

What if ground vehicles had a tight, close in third person view which made catching boomer planters difficult, but still afforded a decent view to your sides?

Aircraft would still have a more distant third person view since it is harder to exploit for aircraft and requires even more situational awareness than ground vehicles.

Bottom line, a tank going full reverse without checking where it's going deserves to crash into any rocks or trees or friendlies in the way, but I don't disagree that being able to see what's right next to you is a significant help.

I don't find 3rd person to be that big a deal for vehicles though. As long as it isn't on infantry, I'll be happy. I wouldn't really mind if no vehicles had 3rd person either. Flying purely in third person can be tricky during some maneuvers, but it is still entirely possible and is a lot more intense in first person. Especially now that trees seem to have more reasonable hit boxes, I'm really not concerned.

Just trying to think of a middle ground that would have maximum fun and playability with a minimum of exploitability.

Metalsheep · 2012-04-11, 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by Bitmap

You don't need to aim with a Jackhammer/SplatMAX, hence 3rdPV's removal.

You cant hit anything with a JH in third person. You might get a lucky shot or two at point blank.

Now, the splat MAX is the exception, its spread is ludicrasly wide on wide choke. And given its high armor value. But id feel confident fighting a Scatmax 1v1 if he had to use 3rd person the whole fight :P

I still say that 3rd person was being used appropriately. Its not like ADADAD spam that was an unintended result of the extrapolation algorithms.

But theres no point defending it, it seems it wont ever be back anyways. :/

Blackwolf · 2012-04-11, 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by Metalsheep

Personally i LIKED the 3rd person view in Planetside. I never felt like using it to peek corners and such was abusive. Its simply using a tool the game developers gave you in an intelligent way. Why else would they have left 3rd person in. You cant aim in 3rd person, or turn the camera to see your character. I can only assume it was for Situational Awareness. Im sad to see it go.

I makes me curious how now, as a Softie i am supposed to be able to check corners, walls and other obsticals for Instant Death like Boomers, Tanks camping, or an Incomeing MAX before it splatters me.

But i do agree that if Aircraft get 3rd person, so should Tanks and other Ground Vehicles, driving in First Person is very difficult and disorienting since your vision is fixed forwards. You cant check your rear or sides, and i could see how the Mag Rider and other Hovering vehicles may have even bigger issues without third person. And saying that Aircraft need 3rd person to see how high they are or not clip their wings seems like a weak arguement. There is no altitude meter/indicator on your HUD? And most of the aircraft are quite sleek and have very small wingspans. (Except the Scythe/Lib maybe. I havent seen their width compared to the Mossie/Reaver)

All vehicles should get third person, not just aircraft. Id even prefer infantry also get it, but that wont happen it seems.

It's exploitation was enormous. And while people are quick to point out you can't aim with 3rdPV, I'll be quicker to point out that 1stPV was an instant away. Even the act of checking for boomers was itself an exploit, not a "clever use of a game mechanic".

Basically the exploit (and subsequent grief caused by something that was pretty much uncounterable without the proper equipment carried specifically for it) outweighed it's viable uses. Especially when you consider that the people laying the boomers had every bit as much right to kill you with their trap, as you did discovering it and subsequently jammering it.

Use jammers at doors you suspect might be trapped, you don't need 3rdPV to identify the ones that are from the ones that aren't. 3rdPV made it completely unfair for the engineers as well as anyone running up or down a stairwell. Just because it made their boomer all but worthless since anyone could simply 3rdPV and see it without putting themselves at risk.

Metalsheep · 2012-04-11, 08:06 PM

Originally Posted by Blackwolf

Use jammers at doors you suspect might be trapped, you don't need 3rdPV to identify the ones that are from the ones that aren't. 3rdPV made it completely unfair for the engineers as well as anyone running up or down a stairwell.

So, jammer EVERY single door, corner, stair, and lip that has enough space for a boomer?

Boomers were EVERYWHERE in Planetside, i feel that third person was not an exploit. It was left purposly to see around your character. Was the camera too wide? Maybe, but i feel it was an essential part of gameplay for Planetside. Hundreds of deaths would be just turning around a corner into something you couldnt possibly know was there. a Max, a Boomer, a crouched camper, a tank, ect ect.

I dont think its fair for that Boomer to kill me if i have NO chance of EVER being alerted to its presence aside from Gut feeling. It would have made boomers rediculasly overpowered.

Since we already know that C4/Boomers are in Planetside 2. I think they should beep audibly so that we know they are nearby. We dont know its EXACT position, but at least that there is one present near us.

I also feel that No third person combined with the faster TTK of PS2 will make Camping WORSE. A Jackhammer REXO can just hide around a corner for you, he is ready for any player to pop around that corner, but you couldnt have been ready for him unless you knew he was there already. BAM, JH instagibs you, and possibly one or two more of your buddies who were just as suprised rounding that corner with you. At least if you have third person, you know hes there camping, he knows you are coming up, and you can react accordingly to eachother.

Thats just me, though. Crotchity old PS Vet

Xyntech · 2012-04-11, 08:25 PM

If there were no third person, those campers would have a lot harder time seeing you coming themselves.

Now having camera grenades that you can use to see around corners I have no problem with. Namely because other players can see them and know that someone may be watching.

Make it so that you can pick them up and reuse them to reduce the "jammer every corner and doorway" problem, and make enemies able to shoot and destroy them so they are possible to defend against.

Blackwolf · 2012-04-11, 08:33 PM

Originally Posted by Metalsheep

So, jammer EVERY single door, corner, stair, and lip that has enough space for a boomer?

Boomers were EVERYWHERE in Planetside, i feel that third person was not an exploit. It was left purposly to see around your character. Was the camera too wide? Maybe, but i feel it was an essential part of gameplay for Planetside. Hundreds of deaths would be just turning around a corner into something you couldnt possibly know was there. a Max, a Boomer, a crouched camper, a tank, ect ect.

I dont think its fair for that Boomer to kill me if i have NO chance of EVER being alerted to its presence aside from Gut feeling. It would have made boomers rediculasly overpowered.

Since we already know that C4/Boomers are in Planetside 2. I think they should beep audibly so that we know they are nearby. We dont know its EXACT position, but at least that there is one present near us.

I also feel that No third person combined with the faster TTK of PS2 will make Camping WORSE. A Jackhammer REXO can just hide around a corner for you, he is ready for any player to pop around that corner, but you couldnt have been ready for him unless you knew he was there already. BAM, JH instagibs you, and possibly one or two more of your buddies who were just as suprised rounding that corner with you. At least if you have third person, you know hes there camping, he knows you are coming up, and you can react accordingly to eachother.

Thats just me, though. Crotchity old PS Vet

Your basic problem is you are a vet who exploited it. I'm not.

Did I run into the occassional boomer? Yes. Was it ever a situation in which I wasn't paying attention when I really should have? In my opinion, no. Without using the exploit, you tend to pick up on the best moments someone might use boomers, and learn to counter them as if you had a sixth sense about it. In my case, it was any time there was a lull in the fight and my side could suddenly surge towards a choke point with little resistance. Most people had the brains to throw jammers then.

I suggested that you use it at choke points you suspect they might be at, if you say every door and hall then you are overly paranoid.

Besides, if boomers really were everywhere, you wouldn't have to waste time on 3rdPV to figure out where they were, would you? It's an exploit that made boomers worthless.

And no, I wasn't a boomer monkey. I was a sniper, I had little use for or complaint against 3rdPV on a personal level. Maybe I developed the ability to hear them being planted, since I had to dodge them often while scoping out victims.

Metalsheep · 2012-04-11, 08:44 PM

I still disagree that Third Person was an exploit. ADAD was an exploit, routerpads through the cieling into the gen was an exploit. AMS's inside walls is an exploit. Third Person view is simply switching your camera view with a function added for that very purpose. I didnt have to like, hit A+V Down Arrow and hit Shift to force my camera to bug into a third person view or something crazy and unintended. THAT would be an exploit.

And really, i havent been Boomered in a very long time. The last time i was boomered was a few months ago when an enemy cloaker was in our base and he left a boomer on the Vterm for the next guy to use it. I wasnt checking for them because supposedly the base was safe and behind the lines. Honestly he deserved that one

It was unexpected.

If anything you'd use T to check so you dont have to waste a Jammer, you can only take so many of those with you and still be combat-effective. I carry 3-6 and typically i end up using all of them. And thats the problem, placing them at choke points. Planetside is ALL chokepoints once you get inside. I dont think i have ever been boomered outside of a Base. You can usually hear them being placed if you turn the music off.

Clik · 2012-04-11, 08:50 PM

3rd person toggling for infantry isn't really needed. If their terrain is designed well it wont be needed in ground vehicles either. A lot of people remember what happened in Planetside 1, that doesn't necessarily carry over in Planetside 2.

Erendil · 2012-04-11, 08:58 PM

Originally Posted by Figment

Combat driving without third person view? Yay rocks. Yay getting stuck in terrain. Yay having to get out to see where you're stuck.

*meanwhile in the air*

HAHA LOOK AT THE STATIONARY TARGETS ALL AROUND ME. =D

Situational awareness for all, or for nobody. Tbh. Least we need is ability to look around and learn what is behind us, where and how far (I doubt we get rearview mirrors). How the hell are you going to make proper driving decisions otherwise? Why create tunnelvision? It's not like we will get sensory feedback from our fingers for instance. Fear we can't turn our heads all the way back nor look out the window.

LOL yeah that's exactly what I was thinking. It's especially bad for the Mag. It occurred to me that w/o 3rdPV the Mag currently has no way to look behind him at all, so going in reverse has to be done completely blind with only the minimap to guide him. Which makes being able to lay down covering fire while retreating in reverse pretty much a non-option for most solo Mag drivers. IMO all ground vehicles need to have 3rdPV.

Originally Posted by Xyntech

What if ground vehicles had a tight, close in third person view which made catching boomer planters difficult, but still afforded a decent view to your sides?

TBH PS1's 3rdPV for most vehicles was set at a pretty good distance. It was close up for MBT's and larger vehicles, and a little farther away for ATV's and Lightnings (and maybe buggies too, I forget) which makes sense since they needed more reaction time to avoid obstacles than other vehicles due to their higher top speed and lack of a dedicated driver (for the ATV and Lightning). It also compensated a bit for their weaker combat effectiveness compared to the larger vehicles.

Originally Posted by Xyntech

Aircraft would still have a more distant third person view since it is harder to exploit for aircraft and requires even more situational awareness than ground vehicles.

IME it's actually easier to exploit with Aircraft (gal/ggs excepted) than ground vehicles due to their increased mobility, and since they could use it regardless of how high or steep-sided the cover they're hiding behind is. It just wasn't used as much because they're often flying higher up well above the terrain.

And I don't think aircraft need it for more spatial awareness since they can always just fly over any obstacles in their path. Ground vehicles have no such option. Although as Higby showed us in the GDC vids landing in 1stPV can be tricky.

But IMO the Mag probably needs it the most out of any vehicle since w/o 3rdPV it'll be strafing and going in reverse completely blind.

Originally Posted by Xyntech

Bottom line, a tank going full reverse without checking where it's going deserves to crash into any rocks or trees or friendlies in the way, but I don't disagree that being able to see what's right next to you is a significant help.

Without 3rdPV the PS2 Mag has no way to check where it's going when moving in reverse due to the forward-fixed cannon. Giving it a 3rdPV camera would alleviate this weakness somewhat, however.

Originally Posted by Xyntech

I don't find 3rd person to be that big a deal for vehicles though. As long as it isn't on infantry, I'll be happy. I wouldn't really mind if no vehicles had 3rd person either. Flying purely in third person can be tricky during some maneuvers, but it is still entirely possible and is a lot more intense in first person. Especially now that trees seem to have more reasonable hit boxes, I'm really not concerned.

Just trying to think of a middle ground that would have maximum fun and playability with a minimum of exploitability.

IMO 3rdPV is already minimally exploitable for vehicles due to their large size, loud engine noise, and constant radar signature. Sure you can look over a hill with it but all nearby enemies will always know you're there. I would hate to see it gone from ground vehicles because as a driver it is so much fun to use. For me, the middle ground is: no 3rdPV for infantry, but 3rdPV available for all vehicles.

Oh and btw, wb Xyn! WTH have u been?

Blackwolf · 2012-04-11, 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by Metalsheep

I still disagree that Third Person was an exploit. ADAD was an exploit, routerpads through the cieling into the gen was an exploit. AMS's inside walls is an exploit. Third Person view is simply switching your camera view with a function added for that very purpose. I didnt have to like, hit A+V Down Arrow and hit Shift to force my camera to bug into a third person view or something crazy and unintended. THAT would be an exploit.

And really, i havent been Boomered in a very long time. The last time i was boomered was a few months ago when an enemy cloaker was in our base and he left a boomer on the Vterm for the next guy to use it. I wasnt checking for them because supposedly the base was safe and behind the lines. Honestly he deserved that one

It was unexpected.

If anything you'd use T to check so you dont have to waste a Jammer, you can only take so many of those with you and still be combat-effective. I carry 3-6 and typically i end up using all of them. And thats the problem, placing them at choke points. Planetside is ALL chokepoints once you get inside. I dont think i have ever been boomered outside of a Base. You can usually hear them being placed if you turn the music off.

You describe exploits of bugs. 3rdPV was an exploit of a game feature that wasn't removed because people tore each other up one side and down the other about it. I remember the flame wars, and supported the 3rdPV staying in PS1. The idea of removing it or making it an implant (even a free implant that everyone has, but simply drained stamina) was illogical to me. Since this is a fresh new game without any previous prejudices involved, I agree with the DEVs that it needs to stay out of infantry hands.

1. to utilize, especially for profit; turn to practical account: to exploit a business opportunity.

2. to use selfishly for one's own ends: employers who exploit their workers.

3. to advance or further through exploitation; promote: He exploited his new movie through a series of guest appearances.

Not to be a dictionary nazi. But by definition, it is an exploit, regardless if you think of it as one or not.

The real argument here is, is it an unfair exploit. My stance is yes, that never changed even when I defended it way back when. You had the ability to see around corners and always know whether or not your jammer would do something useful. It's no different to me always knowing whether or not the bullet I shoot will hit you. I could save a crap ton of ammo if I knew exactly when to shoot you, now couldn't I?

Metalsheep · 2012-04-11, 09:36 PM

How is it an unfair ability when EVERYONE can do it? Its not like only a few players can Third Person and make it overpowered. Any player, regardless of weapon, implant, armor or even if they were in a vehicle or not, could use Third Person the same way as anyone else. Not everyone can ADAD warp, or set up Router pads in exploitable ways.

I see 3rd person as a tool, not an exploit. Its why it was left in the game. As a tool for all players to use. If you intentionally refuse to use Third Person for some arbitrary reason or another, you are purposely handicapping yourself and shouldnt complain when someone using the tools everyone has available to them, to beat you who wont use it. If it is being used as intended, then it is not being exploited.

If the 3rd person cam is not for situational awareness, then why is it in game?

But enough about PS1 third person, its set in stone.I know they won't be adding 3rd person view to PS2, and as sad as it makes me, ill deal with it.

To me, though. Why do aircraft get to be special and get 3rd person? When they can use it the exact same way an infantryman could in PS1, or the same way it was used by aircav in PS1. Hovering behind hilltops using 3rd person to spot targets or see if the coast was clear to go farm softies. Or to see where other aircraft are around you. If ground vehicles and infantry are limited to first person view and reliant on their Radar or other means of detection to know whats going on 280 degrees around them, then so should aircraft.

Third person for all vehicles, or for none at all.