Magrider Fixed Gun

[Raymac]

Originally Posted by NapalmEnima

Not for long anyway.

And the organized folks with the nicely specced secondaries with actual gunners will do Just Fine.

Exactly. Perhaps they devs think that will be a balancing factor?

I still don't like it. I can see the arguement for letting the driver shoot the main gun. I'm not a fan of it, but I can understand it. However, I really think there should be an option to let the driver just drive and have dedicated gunners. But then the Mag would need the main gun on a turret that much more. wtf I'm going cross-eyed now.

[sylphaen]

So as with the above point, the real poll for this topic should be "strafe + fixed main gun" OR "no-strafe w/ turret". There are no other options without removing the driver-manned main gun (and a driver-manned secondary gun makes even less sense given that secondary guns can have things like AA flak cannons on them....hard to shoot aircraft as a driver with a fixed secondary gun).

I agree with that.

2) Fixed main gun is a no-no. This situation took me 10 seconds to think of. Once in a while, you'd be running away from another tank or something dangerous while it was shooting at you in a close chase. Your Mag gunner might be able to fend them off or kill them before they kill you, but if the driver is in control of that gun, then it CANNOT be a fixed gun. It would have a great disadvantage to the other tanks whereas they can go full speed forward and shoot behind them, and the Magrider would have nothing to do but keep going and hoping you won't die.

Very strong point too. I agree.

________________

I chose "Other opinion". By this point, one has to be blind not to realize that PS2 is not PS1. I liked the PS1 tankstyle but if they do not want it like that in PS2, whatever... It's their game in the end.

For me, it will be free-to-try and I can always play more infantry instead of tanks.

I think they want to go with the BF tank model where the driver gets the real main big gun canon (i.e. he IS the tank) and the secondary gunner is optional, just there to cover the tank with the AI/AA/(dual AV gun for NC ? ) light turret (i.e. a very nice to have bonus but not necessary at all).

My guess is that the fixed canon on the Mag is to keep the VS "different" but in the end, the result will be very similar between empires:
- VS: fixed canon, moving body
- NC/TR: moving canon, fixed vehicle

If there is localized damage and the NC/TR tanks can only rotate their body by moving forward or backwards, the VS might be advantaged in short ranged fights since it can keep showing its front hull while going around the enemy tank.

For long range, it might be a pain in the a** to stabilize the aim though. I could never properly align the PPA gun in PS1 because of all the spinning.

If we do get into a BF2142 style game, I also suspect the Mag will not be that faster compared to other empire tanks in PS2 and that the tanks will be closer alike to each other stats-wise.

[Graywolves]

I think a driver focused on driving with gunners will come out on top over a multi-tasked personnel.

Customization and skills ftw

[Erendil]

Originally Posted by Zulthus

2 Things on the Magrider;

1) The damage on the Rail Cannon was the tradeoff for its no-arc, fast moving projectile. It was pretty bad. You needed 3 direct hits on infantry to kill them, and if you and another MBT got in a fight, each hitting every shot, the Magrider wouldn't win. It's meant to be used at range, away from the hard-hitting shells.

2) Fixed main gun is a no-no. This situation took me 10 seconds to think of. Once in a while, you'd be running away from another tank or something dangerous while it was shooting at you in a close chase. Your Mag gunner might be able to fend them off or kill them before they kill you, but if the driver is in control of that gun, then it CANNOT be a fixed gun. It would have a great disadvantage to the other tanks whereas they can go full speed forward and shoot behind them, and the Magrider would have nothing to do but keep going and hoping you won't die.

Also, what BorisBlade said.

This.

The Mag's low AI damage was a big disadvantage at key points of the battle in PS1, namely when trying to breach a courtyard or contain the enemy within a tower, or anywhere else where softies congregated.

And its low armour and low DPS meant that in tank battles you couldn't just charge towards the enemy guns blazing. You had to stay at a distance, attack while moving to one side of the enemy, or bait them into chasing you where you could use your superior speed to stay at a distance while firing behind you. A forward-fixed main gun would basically eliminate the latter 2 options.

The only way I can see a fixed-mounted gun not severely gimping the Mag is if, 1)it became the most-armoured and/or highest DPS of the ES Tanks so it normally came out on top during up-close slugfests, or 2)if they made it so nimble that it moved the same speed backwards as forwards and its turning speed was equal to that of a "normal" tank turret so it could keep its distance from other tanks while still returning fire and could track targets as effectively as the other tanks.

But the first option sounds more like a WWII tank-killer then a main battle tank, and the second option IMO would work much better as an ES Lightning varient. And having a fixed turret doesn't exactly sound "high tech" to begin with...

[Captain1nsaneo]

VS focus on mobility and flexibility not armor and firepower. The mag was pretty much the embodiment of this with its long accurate cannon, speed, and water mobility. As a VS I agree with what others have said about its PPA being a waste. It wasn't good against infantry because of adadad strafing being impossible to follow with a fixed tank gun that has no splash.

The idea of most VS stuff is that it's harder to use but it has greater rewards for mastery. I can see this new mag going that way too but it needs to be mobile to accomplish that goal. Give it a good rear view mirror for the driver, a short afterburner instead of emergency brakes, and full speed sideways and reverse with fast turning speed and I see no problem with this build.

[SgtMAD]

now this is only a rough outline of this thread so far.

the answer seems to be make the magrider the fastest tank with the heaviest armor and the most mobility while the other empires are stuck with oversized lightnings.

SOE has really lost their way with all this gunner/driver crap,they could see what the problems would be if they took 30 minutes and had someone that has some game experience show them why the gunner version is the best way to go.

just take them out in a vanny and see what they kill then go jump in a lightning and see how hard it is to dodge through trees shooting at infantry and drive the damn tank,you can't compare the damage output but they would see how hard it is to drive and try to fight off the tank following you .

I mean how in the hell do you defend against a trailing enemy tank if you are both the driver and main gunner? all you are going to do is end up hitting something and getting killed or hit a damn mine field while you were looking backwards trying to defend yourself.

[Graywolves]

There's a vid from gunner perspective too.

[Sirisian]

Originally Posted by HtSgtMAD

I mean how in the hell do you defend against a trailing enemy tank if you are both the driver and main gunner? all you are going to do is end up hitting something and getting killed or hit a damn mine field while you were looking backwards trying to defend yourself.

That will separate the skilled users from the beginners. I personally have no problem driving a lightning through trees while shooting behind me. Just takes practice.

Big reason why there's another thread asking for the option to release the main gun to your gunner to use. When firing shells from a far distance you can multi-task fairly easily. For players that can control their own primary gun skillfully though and have a gunner manning secondary weapons. That will be a very powerful tank.

Originally Posted by Graywolves

[video]

Yeah still want the swivel. However, now you're making me remember BF2142 and why I loved that game. I want mechs. Now that we driver-centric guns maybe people will rethink their mech stance. That's for another thread though. (See sig).

[Talek Krell]

Originally Posted by Sirisian

Just takes practice.

Yeah Mad, all you have to do is grow eyes in your ass like Sirisian and you'll have no problem with it.

[Malorn]

Stop talking about damage of the gun; its irrelevant to this discussion.

[Malorn]

Watch the vid Greywolves posted. That's a glimpse into Magrider gameplay as they have it planned.

Yes, you can't shoot while running away, but in return you get...
- more evasion capabilities via strafing (this is huge, watch the video to see how much he was able to dodge by using it)
- always having your strongest frontal armor forward while fighting another tank

That's what we call a "tradeoff"

You're going to spend a lot more time in shootouts than you will running away from fights. And if you use that strafing evasively and that frontal armor advantage then you won't need to run away in the first place. Or you can use the reverse + strafe to keep your distance so you don't need to actually turn and run away and can keep your gun forward.

I remain convinced that the fixed frontal gun on the mag is a net gain and an overall advantage to the vehicle. It also make sit quite unique from the other two tanks with its strafing ability. Good mag pilots will be a pain in the ass to deal with.

[Azren]

Originally Posted by Malorn

Watch the vid Greywolves posted. That's a glimpse into Magrider gameplay as they have it planned.

All I see is a more agile BFR concept... whoever first thought that drivers should get to use the main gun of a tank is a fool. There is a reason why no tank in existence has the driver gunning aswell.

Originally Posted by Malorn

Yes, you can't shoot while running away, but in return you get...
- more evasion capabilities via strafing (this is huge, watch the video to see how much he was able to dodge by using it)
- always having your strongest frontal armor forward while fighting another tank

That's what we call a "tradeoff"

Strafing in PS1 is very slow, you do not really avoid anything with only strafing. In fact, I would gladly trade strafing for a turret (gunner operated one; to hell with driver gunnery). Besides any tank can "strafe", all you have to do is not to be facing directly at your target, but at a 45° angle...

The only place I would like a fixed gun and strafing is the light battle tank (lighting now). It would be fun, like it was in Battlezone. But those tanks do little damage, and die fast.

[Zulthus]

Originally Posted by Malorn

Stop talking about damage of the gun; its irrelevant to this discussion.

Nobody gives a shit whether you think something is relevant or irrelevant to the discussion; nobody was talking to you. Any by the way, it is completely relevant. It is a tradeoff. If the damage of the gun is shit like in PS1, the Mag needs more to compensate for its shortfalls. A fixed turret is a bad idea. It needs to be able to swivel like the other empires, while still having great maneuverability and speeds going any direction.

[FastAndFree]

Originally Posted by Azren

All I see is a more agile BFR concept... whoever first thought that drivers should get to use the main gun of a tank is a fool. There is a reason why no tank in existence has the driver gunning aswell.

There is. Never been used in live warfare, but there is.

Edit, it even has a rear driver, so it can reverse as fast as it can go forward. Almost sounds like a french design

[Graywolves]

Magrider's Rail Gun is not bad. I 3-shot Mosquitoes out of the sky.


But damage is a trade-off. Seriously though I love the magrider, I almost want to be VS just to gun for it. omfg man.