Higby on Magriders - Page 3

BIGGByran · 2013-02-18, 08:16 PM

Originally Posted by Rothnang

You can dodge just fine in a Prowler or Vanguard, read my above post.

I would disagree with you on the Vanguard. It's acceleration sucks.

If you say: You just have to keep moving. Well moving and shotting in a tank(not mag) is like Jumping and Firing as Infantry.
We (Prowler and Vanguard) HAVE to stay stationary to make accurate shots, and by doing so, we are sitting ducks while magriders could move and fire with ease. When we turn our chassy, we have to counter turn our turret to keep facing the same direction. ANY MOVEMENT done to the tank, affect the turret directly, which then we have to readjust our aim, while a mag only has to readjust to left and right turns, we have to adjust to everything including left and right.

Don't say, well I played the Lightning and I don't have any trouble. Lightning are quicker and faster than Vanguards.

So I think the first fix they should have done was give us Weapon Stabilization and see how the numbers look. I'm sure the mag wouldn't have been so OP, but it would still be the better of the 3 tanks due to the straffing ability it has.

I do support the nerfing of the "SpiderMag" the ability to maneuver was never meant to be the ability to rock climb also.

I do not support the nerfing of it's maneuverbility(maybe slightly, but not much) nor any kind of armor nerfs. Getting hit by AV Lock Ons was a bitch.

Rothnang · 2013-02-18, 08:20 PM

You are so completely cought up in your mental construct of what strafing means that you just completely ignore the fact that you can produce angular velocity with your front armor turned with any other tank as well.

Yea, gun stabilization would have been the right way to balance it, but the Magrider NEVER had a strafing advantage.

In reality the Magrider has a mobility disadvantage, because it can't retreat or strafe a target at full speed while firing, or look where its going while retreating with its strongest armor facing the threat. Other tanks have those options, and they aren't unable to strafe with front armor facing either if you understand the bare basics of tank warfare.

Chewy · 2013-02-18, 08:26 PM

Originally Posted by Xaine

Seeing as you just attacked every VS player for no reason at all, i'll return the favour.

Your K/D ratio makes everything you say regarding game mechanics completely moot.

Good day, Sir.

And your opinion of the matters of K/D ratio having meaning in PS2 makes what you say about game mechanics moot.

Binkley · 2013-02-18, 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by Bear

Hmmm.......Higby's data.....yup...looks fair to me.

http://i.imgur.com/8Ouhkqs.png

Based on this data, it's clear how just insanely OP that Mags were prior to GU2. Look at the drop off after the update, no wonder the VS are crying.

I'd expect the Prowlers to be getting hit with the nerf bat in the next week or so. As it should be.

It's impossible to argue with those numbers. Everyone knew it, one faction denied it, but there it is plain as day and now the game is better than ever.

Rothnang · 2013-02-18, 08:39 PM

The problem with those numbers is that they represent the average, they don't in any way show how the fights behave at various skill levels.

As it stands right now, Magriders are still pwning anyone who let's themselves get shot in the back. The devs just tweaked the numbers so that anyone who isn't that dumb can now win a fight with a Magrider easily, where before they were on even footing.

Bear · 2013-02-18, 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by Xaine

Seeing as you just attacked every VS player for no reason at all, i'll return the favour.

Your K/D ratio makes everything you say regarding game mechanics completely moot.

Good day, Sir.

You are correct, it's unfair for me to lump all the VS players into one giant basket. For that I apologize. There are some great VS players who don't mind slugging it out, who manage not to spend all their free time crying about how imbalanced they are. They also have the guts to get out of their tank and actually make an effort to cap a base, rather that just sitting on a hillside spamming rounds into a spawn room door.

I'm fully responsible for charging into places I shouldn't go and sticking my nose around corners and getting it shot off. However, I'm much rather spend my time on the ground. For me, this game is about the firefight and I've never given my K/D ratio a second thought. If I was concerned about my K/D ratio, I'd be playing VS and I'd never leave my Magrider.

If that's your measure of how good a player is, then so be it, guilty as charged.

Bear · 2013-02-18, 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by Rothnang

The problem with those numbers is that they represent the average, they don't in any way show how the fights behave at various skill levels.

As it stands right now, Magriders are still pwning anyone who let's themselves get shot in the back. The devs just tweaked the numbers so that anyone who isn't that dumb can now win a fight with a Magrider easily, where before they were on even footing.

The problem with those numbers is that they don't support your argument!

Funny thing about HUGE sample sizes, they tend to mitigate the variables.

Kerrec · 2013-02-18, 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by Rothnang

The problem with those numbers is that they represent the average, they don't in any way show how the fights behave at various skill levels.

As it stands right now, Magriders are still pwning anyone who let's themselves get shot in the back. The devs just tweaked the numbers so that anyone who isn't that dumb can now win a fight with a Magrider easily, where before they were on even footing.

WHAT? You need to take a statistics class. And look up the definition of "average".

Do you really believe that the VS are the only ones with "smart/skilled" tank drivers and every TR/NC in a tank is just dumb/noobish?

With a large sample size, it is very probable that all of the levels of skill are represented. To have a situation where only the VS have the "skilled" players would be an ASTRONOMICAL improbability.

Lets take your thought process one step further. The 4th faction is pretty much an agreed upon faction. The VS populations dropped while the NC/TR populations increased. Do you think all the VS people quit playing, and at the same time a whole bunch of new people started playing? And out of all those new people, none chose VS? Get real! They switched teams.

Having switched teams, using the now FOTM tanks of the TR/NC against their Prior Team Magriders, they only manage to achieve a draw? All those "skilled" players now using Prowlers and Vanguards can't dominate the now super nerfed Magriders?

People asked for numbers. They were provided. Now you choose to ignore those numbers and make up fantasy stories to argue them away. You Sir, are sad.

EDIT: And you want to know what is REALLY FUNNY? Look at those numbers again. It appears that Prowlers are a little bit overpowered, although not as much as Magriders used to be.

But take a look at Prowler vs. Magrider. At first, Prowlers were winning. Later on, Magriders are gaining lost ground. Can most likely attribute the early lost ground to the bugs that slowly got fixed.

Now take a look at Vanguard vs. Magrider. Same story. Magrider lost ground early on, and started making it back up later. Again, can most likely attribute the early lost ground to the bugs that slowly got fixed.

Here's the kicker!!! Look at Prowler vs. Vanguard. Prowler wins. So, the overall overpoweredness of the Prowler in the global standing is a result of Vanguards not being up to snuff with Prowlers. To get that final bit of balance, all that would be necessary is to tweak the Vanguard and Prowler dynamic. Magriders wouldn't even need to be touched...

BIGGByran · 2013-02-18, 09:26 PM

Originally Posted by Rothnang

You are so completely cought up in your mental construct of what strafing means that you just completely ignore the fact that you can produce angular velocity with your front armor turned with any other tank as well.

In reality the Magrider has a mobility disadvantage, because it can't retreat or strafe a target at full speed while firing, or look where its going while retreating with its strongest armor facing the threat. Other tanks have those options, and they aren't unable to strafe with front armor facing either if you understand the bare basics of tank warfare.

Angular Velocity, do you mean, instead of coming straight to the mag to close the distance, I turn my front to the side to have a slight ability to dodge, but now I am not coming at you at full speed as I am in an angle?

Vanguard and Prowlers CANNOT Strafe at all.

Vanguard in reverse 22 kmph - strafe 0 - top speed 55 - very slow on switching from forwards to reverse and vice versa.

Magrider in reverse 32 kmph - strafe 37 - top speed 50 - Very fast from switching from forward to reverse and vice versa

So sure, we can keep our front facing the threat but we only move at 22 kmph and we can still ONLY move in 2 directions towards the threat or away so we cannot dodge if we want to fully retreat.
Mags can do a quick spin to get a mental map of whats behind him and keep the front facing the threat while maintaining it's ability to dodge attack and going at a speed of 32 kmph or 37 if u strafe.

And AGAIN, if we want to keep the distance close so that we can minimize mag dodging skills, we have to MOVE and SHOOT which again is like jumping and firing as infantry. On flat land it isn't a problem, not as much, but there isn't very much flat land.

Badjuju · 2013-02-18, 09:28 PM

Originally Posted by Bear

Is there a faction that cries more than the Vanu? Seriously, the minute they can't climb up and down every sixty degree slope their world ends? No way to cling to a mountainside and spam a base, the the games unplayable? When they can't simply mag spam every base that have absolutely no tactical alternative? They've got a laser for a main gun, no range considerations and the ability to strafe an they still can't win a 1 v 1 tank battle?

They've got the most accurate weapons in the game and an ESF that's insanely maneuverable but that's not enough. They've actually cried so much they got the lead developer to spend an afternoon in their tank because they just can't compete.

I'll tell ya what, I'll trade you the Prowler and the Carv for the Mag and the Orion any day of the week. Cry to Higby about that.

I'm convinced the VS won't be happy unless the Mag can go everywhere and be virtually unhittable by the other two factions.

Hell, just make it fly. Maybe that will shut them up.

There is no reason to use the Carv or Orion in this game, so how is that relevant. Both are sub par in their niche compared to another weapon. Differences in the best weapons in any class are so small with the given TTK that they don't matter any ways.

The vanu ESF is very maneuverable yes, because ya know, its kind of their thing. Is the mossy not insanely fast and the reaver not heavily armored?

The complaints I have seen about the mag have concerned strafing speed and random hang ups. As it turns out, these are both problems that exist and are bugs. So they are babies and wrong for "crying"? Interesting.

"No range considerations?" False, have you ever driven a mag?

Clinging to mountains was nerfed a long time ago with. Complaints if they existed at all were so minimal that I never saw one.

The faction that cries the most is subjective and every changing based on whats going on with balance in the game. On the PS2 forums, I feel like the TR cry far more than anyone else. Before the last patch, every other post was NC complaing about how bad their faction was. As it turns out, they just had the shit warp gate. Assuming members of any given faction are different from one another and will complain more is just stupid if you ask me. The fair weather players maybe, but they have jumped ship to the faction of the month all the time.

Last time I checked the prowler was a beast. If you would prefer the Mags strengths over the prowlers then maybe you should switch factions. You seem to be incredibly fond of the VS strengths while failing to recognize that the TR have their own strengths which are equally beneficial.

There will always be people that complain and think something balanced is OP. Some times however the "Crying" is justified based on some aspect of the game and not just some one pissed off because they keep loosing.

All 3 factions are pretty balanced if you ask me aside from Maxes. Not because the NC max is a kill whore, but because the other two simply don't dominate a niche or have any big advantage anywhere as the NC max does. I'd change the other two before nerfing NC.

I don't understand how you chastise some one about "crying" then proceed to make your own complaints, bias remarks, and misconstrue unique strengths and weaknesses of empires as a lack of balance.

psijaka · 2013-02-18, 09:39 PM

Originally Posted by Bear

Hmmm.......Higby's data.....yup...looks fair to me.

http://i.imgur.com/8Ouhkqs.png

Based on this data, it's clear how just insanely OP that Mags were prior to GU2. Look at the drop off after the update, no wonder the VS are crying.

I'd expect the Prowlers to be getting hit with the nerf bat in the next week or so. As it should be.

Thanks for posting this Bear; nice to have some hard facts, makes a change from tearful hyperbole.

From the data, it now looks as if the Prowler has a slight edge. Slight, mind you, nothing like the ridiculous advantage that the Magrider had.

psijaka · 2013-02-18, 09:44 PM

Originally Posted by Xaine

Your K/D ratio makes everything you say regarding game mechanics completely moot.

Good day, Sir.

Rubbish. What has K/D ratio got to do with the validity of someone's argument?

Ghoest9 · 2013-02-18, 09:56 PM

What Higby says is quite reasonable.

IMO most of the Vanus whining about the Mag are people used to being who were used to being over powered and dont realize it.
Sort of like any NC who says the MAXes are balanced - the only difference is the Mag is used was more than any MAX.

maradine · 2013-02-18, 10:17 PM

What is it about Magrider threads? Brings the most amazing arguments out of the woodwork.

Rothnang · 2013-02-18, 10:20 PM

I don't think so.

Driving a Lightning has become even more pointless than before with a general buff to two other tanks.

The Magriders supposed ability to strafe and get behind people is nonexistent if you're fighting a good Prowler/Vanguard player, and never was.

I'd be willing to admit I'm wrong if Higby could produce a meaningful metric.

I want to see a graph that breaks down the number of kills people achieve in each of the tanks before and after the patch in a graph of #of tanks pulled vs. #kills achieved with one tank. I believe that we would see that Magriders have a higher average in that distribution, but a much more drastic falloff toward the top end of kills.

If it shows the distribution to be even for all tanks I'd consider my argument to be disproven and I'll admit that they got the balance right.

I just think that the reason why the averages look balanced now is because Prowlers/Vanguards are insane in the right hands, but crap in the wrong hands, while Magriders perform much more consistently somewhere in the middle. I consider that to be bad balance because it leaves the Magrider pointless for high end play.