Our Lovely TSA strikes again - Page 3

Hamma · 2012-04-26, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by Firefly

I think the US should take a few pointers from the Israelis on airline security.

+1

ItsTheSheppy · 2012-04-26, 09:33 AM

I'm unfamiliar with Israeli airline security...

Vash02 · 2012-04-26, 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by Firefly

I think the US should take a few pointers from the Israelis on airline security.

Ban anyone who speaks ill of Israel from even getting on a plane to Israel?

Firefly · 2012-04-27, 12:20 AM

Originally Posted by Vash02

Ban anyone who speaks ill of Israel from even getting on a plane to Israel?

Perhaps if you want me to take you seriously in this discussion, you should do your homework first. Get back to me when or if you do that.

p0intman · 2012-04-27, 01:28 AM

Originally Posted by Firefly

Perhaps if you want me to take you seriously in this discussion, you should do your homework first. Get back to me when or if you do that.

You know what racial profiling boils down to? Racism. I'd rather like to eradicate that within this country, but thanks.

Originally Posted by ItsTheSheppy

I'm unfamiliar with Israeli airline security...

Among other things, extreme racial profiling (racism).

If you meet the criteria to be considered a member of a certain, specific ethnic group, you're turned away more or less even if completely innocent. That also applies even if you're not a member of said, specific enthic group. You just have to appear to be to the screening staff. So even user error is prone to causing problems.

and, if anyone is curious about what, certain specific ethnic group I'm talking about, take a look at who Israel is at war with.

Figment · 2012-04-27, 04:46 AM

Pft. You can do better than racial profiling for not putting them on aircraft.

Baneblade · 2012-04-27, 06:51 AM

Originally Posted by Figment

Pft. You can do better than racial profiling for not putting them on aircraft.

Of course you can, but context is important too.

Figment · 2012-04-27, 07:15 AM

Originally Posted by Sobekeus

Of course you can, but context is important too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Colepaugh

Shouldn't you have interned all other Americans under the same suspicions after a single incident?

I mean, just to be safe.

ItsTheSheppy · 2012-04-27, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by p0intman

Among other things, extreme racial profiling (racism).

If you meet the criteria to be considered a member of a certain, specific ethnic group, you're turned away more or less even if completely innocent. That also applies even if you're not a member of said, specific enthic group. You just have to appear to be to the screening staff. So even user error is prone to causing problems.

and, if anyone is curious about what, certain specific ethnic group I'm talking about, take a look at who Israel is at war with.

Ah. Is that the case, firefly? Are you advocating that we simply not allow non-whites on planes? Please be specific.

Vash02 · 2012-04-27, 08:18 AM

Originally Posted by Firefly

Perhaps if you want me to take you seriously in this discussion, you should do your homework first. Get back to me when or if you do that.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...ester-17720326

Firefly · 2012-04-28, 12:27 AM

Originally Posted by p0intman

You know what racial profiling boils down to? Racism. I'd rather like to eradicate that within this country, but thanks.

Let's be real, here. How many of the 9/11 hijackers were white? How many were black? How many were American? Who's consistently blown up or hijacked airplanes around the world since the 60s? You can sing us a big fucking song and dance about how we shouldn't profile Arabs or Middle Easterners, but that's fucking stupid. If the shoe fits, wear it. And you're fucking kidding yourself if you think the TSA doesn't racially profile. I can't even tell you the number of Arabs and Semitic-looking people that I've seen pulled off to the side.

After 9/11, everything sharp (including nail clippers and tweezers) was banned. Ever since the Shoe Bomber tried and failed to light his loafers on fire, airports require us to take off our shoes. Ever since the Underwear Bomber tried to light his drawers on fire, we've had porn scanners. British authorities rounded up terrorists who planned to bring liquid explosives on board, and we've all been prohibited from carrying shampoo and toothpaste through ever since. Yet nobody uses the same method twice. TSA doesn't screen like The Minority Report. They don't have a time machine. They screen based on what happened in the past.

I'd rather like to have an effective security agency within this country, but thanks. YOU can stand in front of a scanner and let the little guards laugh at your small pee-pee. YOU can have some fat old white guy stick a hand down your pants. YOU can have some fat old white guy stick his hand down your wife's pants. YOU can have some fat old black guy stick his hand down your toddler's pants. The last time I checked, women and little toddlers weren't bombing planes, weren't being used to smuggle bombs or guns, and they weren't hijacking planes.

That's when their fucking job actually works according to standard. Let's see... TSA's success rate versus Israel's success rate... when it comes to the safety of my family and my country, I think I'll take Israel, but thanks.

Originally Posted by p0intman

If you meet the criteria to be considered a member of a certain, specific ethnic group, you're turned away more or less even if completely innocent. That also applies even if you're not a member of said, specific enthic group. You just have to appear to be to the screening staff. So even user error is prone to causing problems.

I can see you have limited knowledge of how the procedures work. Is profiling part of it? Yes. Is it racial? Maybe if you're stupid enough to call it that. Is it error prone? That depends on whether you're an Israeli airplane that hasn't been hijacked or used as a terror weapon, or a guy trying to get on a plane.

Since you have virtually no idea what you're talking about, I'm going to help you out. I can only help you with the unclassified bits - rumour has it there are a number of classified aspects that nobody talks about. Let's start with the airport itself. Their airport perimeters are secure. Not like ours. Theirs are practically fortified. There are also unmanned remote-control vehicles patrolling the perimeter and they have armed interdiction teams if anyone smuggles anything through.

All cars are stopped for a security check by armed guards. Cameras scan license plates to match them with an international database of suspicious vehicles. There are over 700 cameras at any airport. And just in case anyone decides to get crazy like the dudes in Britain, Israeli airports are hardened against explosions right down to the glass and the trash cans.

Now on to the profiling. I'm curious what sort of ***-hating bullshit you've read that says Israel racially profiles. In case you hadn't noticed, Israel is full of people who generally look similar. Israeli Arabs usually zip through airline security. Even Palestinians zip through if they don't have trigger issues.

On the subject of trigger issues: ever been to Israel? My guess is no, otherwise you wouldn't be making stupid fucking statements about racial profiling. I'm a white Jewish American. My passport has a number of stamps that set off alarm bells (Kuwait, Saudi, Iraq, Pakistan). Their profile triggers include suspicious activity and passport stamps. Being Palestinian doesn't really have anything to do with it, unless you're a Palestinian associated with any of their unsavoury elements. And really, anyone who associates with known criminal elements is a flag.

I got dinged. I'll tell you how it went. A number of security people approached me. They started asking me rapid-fire questions. Why did I have such passport stamps? Recite back the info on my passport. What colour shirt am I wearing in my passport photo? Their questions, sometimes, aren't even predictable or relevant. They're designed that way because fake stories are usually going to collapse after surface examination. These are people who have this down to a psychological art. There are a number of ways to tell when someone is lying - facial ticks, and most importantly their own stupidity. Wanna know why OJ won? Because he didn't testify. Quickest way to fuck yourself is to run your mouth when you don't have everything squared away. Even I stumbled just a bit, and it wasn't until I showed my military ID that I was basically moved to the front of the line as a sort of apology for holding me up. Guess who made it ahead of me? Quite a number of Palestinians.

How many terror incidents have the Israelis had? A helluva lot fewer than ours. How many security failures have they had? A helluva lot fewer than ours. So do we want a system that is cumbersome and doesn't work? Or do we want one that works?

Next time, get your fucking facts straight, by the way.

p0intman · 2012-04-28, 01:06 AM

I'll grant you a few things, Firefly:

1) No, ive never been there.
2) I do however have family from Lebanon who have been there. My uncle was supposed to be on a plane the day before the conflict kicked off in 2006 that was to land in Israel. He wasn't on that plane because he got sick.
3) What little I know was from an on the spot google search and things my family has spoken about.

However, I'm not going to respond to your goading about anything ive read being '***-hating' because its absurd and although I can see your perspective, it can only really devolve from here. From my perspective, from what you've written, that more or less aligns to the kind of crap I'd like to get rid of. Its more likely that if you knew me, as a person, you'd call me an anarchist. I really don't see the massive security lockdown as anything but a violation of civil rights in the states here.

If it were my call, GWB would have been tried for treason and the TSA/DHS disbanded, but thats just my opinion. If we had that kind of a security lockdown here, there would be revolts. People are already offended and disgruntled as it is, I think it would be counter productive to go any further.

CutterJohn · 2012-04-28, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by Firefly

Let's be real, here.

Yes, lets.

From 1995 to 2005.

Driving off the road: 254,419
Falling: 146,542
Accidental poisoning: 140,327
Dying from work: 59,730
Walking down the street: 52,000.
Accidentally drowning: 38,302
Killed by the flu: 19,415
Dying from a hernia: 16,742
Accidental firing of a gun: 8,536
Electrocution: 5,171
Being shot by law enforcement: 3,949
Terrorism: 3147
Carbon monoxide in products: 1,554

Right then. 3147 terrorism deaths in the US over a ten year period. 314 deaths per year(90% of that was 9/11, a major fluke). The DHSs budget in '13 will be $39 billion.

39 billion / 314 equals, drumroll, One hundred and twenty four million, two hundred and three thousand, eight hundred and twenty one dollars for each and every death caused by terrorists in this country.

Ridiculous. Preposterous. Ludicrous. Theres not enough 'ous words to describe that level of mental defect.

There is no terrorist risk. If you die to a terrorist you are a select member of an outlier group so phenomenally minuscule it actually has zero statistical value, and it is worthless to base any rational decision off of that because it simply will not happen. Ever. You have better odds of winning the lottery.

Figment · 2012-04-28, 08:28 AM

But the fear! The Terror!

Oh wait, wasn't that the thing the terrorists tried to create? :x

CutterJohn · 2012-04-28, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by Figment

But the fear! The Terror!

Oh wait, wasn't that the thing the terrorists tried to create? :x

They succeeded.

The strongest country in the world collectively Lost. Its. Shit. Because a handful of guys killed fewer people than die every year to falling down the stairs.