AGN: Community Clash Recording TXR and MERC vs NNG and TGWW - Page 3

snafus · 2013-09-26, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by Sledgecrushr

Its my opinion that AA is very weak. Im not a good pilot at all and I havent died to ground based aa in wuite some time. Burster range is very short and skyguards are easily killed by air. Meanwhile you are running aa its all kind of a one trick pony, mostly ineffective against everything else. Yes in the nexus right now if you rule the air you will win the game.

Though it is 100% true if you own the air in the Nexus the fight is over with. The main issue isn't the effectiveness of AA as it can dominate when deployed correctly. The issue with the Nexus is the base design and geography are absolutely in favor of air. On almost every base it is near impossible to do anything without air being able to absolutely control the fight. And even if you do pull heavy AA the high passes and mountains that separate the map allow for air to do sweeping passes while taking minimal damage.

TorinPS · 2013-09-26, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by Sledgecrushr

Its my opinion that AA is very weak. Im not a good pilot at all and I havent died to ground based aa in wuite some time. Burster range is very short and skyguards are easily killed by air. Meanwhile you are running aa its all kind of a one trick pony, mostly ineffective against everything else. Yes in the nexus right now if you rule the air you will win the game.

You need to distinguish between AA in the greater PS2, and AA on the nexus. Given the compact terrain, the mountains surrounding every base, AA is by it's nature very limited.

AA in the greater PS2 is very powerful right now, especially against Liberators.

AA on the Nexus is limited by the finite assets (people, resources) able to be dedicated to AA, and still be able to compete in taking points, etc.

AA on the Nexus is mostly as it should be: an air-based endeavor. The only true counter to air, is air. If you cannot compete in the air, you lose the air battle. If you cannot compete on the ground, you lose the ground battle. To be competitive, you need to be able to do both.

Aarth · 2013-09-26, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by Sledgecrushr

Its my opinion that AA is very weak. Im not a good pilot at all and I havent died to ground based aa in wuite some time. Burster range is very short and skyguards are easily killed by air. Meanwhile you are running aa its all kind of a one trick pony, mostly ineffective against everything else. Yes in the nexus right now if you rule the air you will win the game.

You have flown for a total of 8 hrs and killed a total of 8 people. Either you have not flown in an actual fight, instead just flying to bail out at a target site, or AA/Air defense has been extremely effective against you.

AA is quite effective although less mobile then air. Skyguards while killable are very threatening to to air and quite deadly in the hands of a good gunner, properly organized they can move well with armor (repair/ammo sundies help to). AA turrets are similar though stationary. Bursters also work well at pushing air off the point though they don't have the area denial that Skyguards can grant. Lock-ons of course round this out and are a very low cost way of pushing away the sky. Of course with all of this, coordination in a fire team with AA greatly magnifies its effectiveness.

The best way with dealing with air is either other air, or a well coordinated well practiced AA fire team. Ad Hoc AA units will do just fine in general but versus well trained air squads you need to have well trained AA squad at the very least.

Sledgecrushr · 2013-09-26, 10:39 AM

I watched the CC and it seemed to me that aa is almost completely ineffective in the nexus. Tgww and nng were able to keep a sizable airball up the entire fight. I did see txr and exe try to make a dent several several times but ground based aa was not up to the task.

TorinPS · 2013-09-26, 11:15 AM

A handful of people doing ground AA is not going to be able to deter 4 libs and like 10 ESFs.

The ground AA was a sporadic DB MAX, or a single skyguard, or 2 or 3 guys with Strikers.

Given the amount of terrain that can be used as quick cover, you need to really make a concerted effort, not some half-hearted attempt.

But really, the only true counter to air is other air. If you want to deal with air, and can't do it with air, you're going to lose the war of attrition.

Karzi · 2013-09-26, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by Sledgecrushr

I watched the CC and it seemed to me that aa is almost completely ineffective in the nexus. Tgww and nng were able to keep a sizable airball up the entire fight. I did see txr and exe try to make a dent several several times but ground based aa was not up to the task.

AA on nexus is fine how it is because Nexus is SO SMALL. It took 30 seconds to get with my scythe the the other WG , if it weren for all those mountains there wouldnt be any Air game in the nexus because of the insane AA positions there.
4 AA turrets right next to each other? Deadly you cant kill that with Air , support it with 2 more skyguards and you have a no fly zone .
Yes its right in front of your WG so it only helps you when you got pushed back to their which is perfectly fine.

If you got pushed back there and you need the AA , that it means that you are loosing but you get home advantage of your WG. But after that line you have to do everything with YOUR ressources. Those islands were made for MLG that means that they need to be balanced and that means that they dont support scrub play . With scrub play i mean people realing on Lock ons with a big range on open field to deal with enemies , which is the situation on the live server . It is really open , AA turrets are a high positions with a good view so they can shoot you for 1000 meters , which is almost the entire nexus.

Kount · 2013-09-26, 11:47 AM

Controlling the Air in the Nexus seems to be a theme with the last two CC events. AA in this environment (48v48) cannot effectively come from ground units, and must come from Air assets themselves. On the live servers you are able get yourself a critical mass of bodies able to dedicate themselves to AA (burster nest, striker nest, etc.) while in these matches every ground body is pulling double duty dealing with infantry and armor. You cannot effectively place the amount of bodies you need on the ground to combat the Air Threat and must maintain that superiority through your own Air assets.

As was pointed out last night by myself and others, the nexus is a little too big for 48v48. The geography is pretty awesome and bases well thought out, however there are just too many bases. Some suggestions if it stays at 48v48 would be to drop the base number to 5 or just have the platoons fight down a single lane. Since programming bases out is of the question, until you get a 96v96 you really only need to use one lane. Would keep the pace of the battle frantic and show of outfit(s) skills in their chosen specialty.

EVILPIG · 2013-09-26, 11:52 AM

The lack of Beacon or Squad Deploy strengthens air dominance. I'd like to see those functions added back in.

Rolfski · 2013-09-26, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by TorinPS

So.. for a competitive air game, you think inexperienced people should be able to compete? If 25% of your allotted players can be allocated to air, you're good. If you can't get 25% of your players either interested in the air game or willing to practice and learn it well, what does that say about the outfit?

Keep in mind that Community Clash is intended for every outfit, not just the esport ones. Knowing that your outfit will be dead in the water on Nexus if you don't sustain at least a wing of BR 100 reverse thrusting ninjas, is not exactly a tempting invite to participate in these Community Clash series.

On a competitive map, air should be a valid tactic but never the only one as now seems to be the case here (although it's a bit early for final conclusions). That's just boring to watch and bad game design. Any tactic needs a counter and atm AA seems too weak on this particular map to be an effective counter.

Every competitive combined arms game (Battlefield) has always had an element of air superiority. Given how important it is to winning conflicts, how can a 'competitive outfit' even consider neglecting it?

Games like Battlefield series only allow for a few vehicles in the game, which prevents all kinds of balancing issues Planetside 2 had from the start.
Vehicle play in this game is just way too different from any other game because of its scale.

If you ask me, an outfit without a competitive air wing is not a competitive outfit. There are plenty of good pilots on all servers, though usually spread out around various outfits, 1 or 2 pilots each. If someone were to want to play competitively, they would need to recruit.

This exactly illustrates why the air game is so broken atm. The skill vs reward balance is completely whacked. If you don't spend 500+ hours into flying, you simply have no place in the air which is ridiculous, even for esports outfits. Knowing that you have to rely on recruiting outside to stay competitive is too much of a threshold, even for them.
It's ok for this game to have an insanely high skill ceiling but it should never result in insanely high rewards like this match painfully made clear.
A top ace 1000+ hours pilot should only be 20% stronger vs a mediocre pilot, not 2000%.

necrate · 2013-09-26, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfski

A top ace 1000+ hours pilot should only be 20% stronger vs a mediocre pilot, not 2000%.

What makes you say that it isn't already like that? 20% is generous given the current state of the game. Saying that you need 500+ hours to be competitive is ridiculous. Don't use such hyperbole when trying to make a serious argument.

Also, without some sort of smart matchmaking system there will always be a significant likelihood of uneven matches in terms of practice and experience. In this case it was a good match and it was almost tied up at one point. That shows that the strategy used by the winning side was not without its glaring flaws.

TorinPS · 2013-09-26, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Keep in mind that Community Clash is intended for every outfit, not just the esport ones. Knowing that your outfit will be dead in the water on Nexus if you don't sustain at least a wing of BR 100 reverse thrusting ninjas, is not exactly a tempting invite to participate in these Community Clash series.

It is true, which is why it seems that RC has been attempting to pair people up based on this reality. Why FC faced TIW, etc.

You can't of course everyone to be a good pairing. You could argue that last night's pairing was not the best, but it wasn't horrible. MERC has some good pilots, I know our comms reflected a constant push to kill SNAFU, which was a difficult endeavor. I'm sure future match-ups will give some additional analysis to the air side of things, as it is important.

Originally Posted by Rolfski

On a competitive map, air should be a valid tactic but never the only one as now seems to be the case here (although it's a bit early for final conclusions). That's just boring to watch and bad game design. Any tactic needs a counter and atm AA seems too weak on this particular map to be an effective counter.

I'd argue that on a competitive map, combined arms is the only valid tactic. You need to be able to win all aspects of the fight, to win the overall battle. If you lose the air fight, everything else falls apart. Just like if you 'drew' on the air fight, but lose the ground fight. Air has a counter, air. This is actually how PS2 was designed from the beginning, and it is only the mass proliferation of easy-to-use AA and the droves of people spamming skill-less weapons that creates the environment you see on public servers. When you limit the game to a finite amount of people on both sides, that becomes a more reasonable share of the equation. AA has been 'put in its place', to where it is really only effective over the base it is employed (not 3 hexes away like it is on the public servers), so if you are going to pull it, you need to pull a substantial enough amount to actually fight it. Want to kill 4 ESFs and 2 Liberators shelling your spawn? You better be planning to pull like 8 DB MAXes or multiple 3+ Skyguards in short order. Or your own ESFs.

But you can't rely on the pubbie masses to do the job for you. This was always the issue with AA early on in PS2, and why it got buffed so much to where it is now. People always assume someone else will do it. But when you're playing 48 v 48, there is nobody to do it for you. And when you don't do it yourself, you suffer the consequences.

A lot of the previous RCCCs have been very focused on infantry gameplay confined to a single base. That's all fine and dandy, but then you get battle islands, and open it up to 48v48 gameplay. These maps were designed with the core principles of PS2 combined arms play in mind. You get air superiority, you can pull ground vehicles and push with infantry onto points. You want to change that status quo? You start with the air.

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Games like Battlefield series only allow for a few vehicles in the game, which prevents all kinds of balancing issues Planetside 2 had from the start.
Vehicle play in this game is just way too different from any other game because of its scale.

In a way yes, but in a way no. Yes, you're usually limited to a handful of aircraft, 2-4. You also only usually play with 12 or so people, so it's about the equivalent split. Sure, you could pull 48 aircraft, but you wouldn't get anything done. While there are not a finite amount of vehicles (except as limited by resources) to use, there is a finite amount of people you can dedicate to them, and still be able to take bases.

Originally Posted by Rolfski

This exactly illustrates why the air game is so broken atm. The skill vs reward balance is completely whacked. If you don't spend 500+ hours into flying, you simply have no place in the air which is ridiculous, even for esports outfits. Knowing that you have to rely on recruiting outside to stay competitive is too much of a threshold, even for them.
It's ok for this game to have an insanely high skill ceiling but it should never result in insanely high rewards like this match painfully made clear.
A top ace 1000+ hours pilot should only be 20% stronger vs a mediocre pilot, not 2000%.

That is definitely an opinion. There are infantry equivalents of the ace vs. mediocre pilot scenario, and they are so significantly better than it isn't even a reasonable pairing. People who are so better in tanks than other people, that they have absolutely no chance to lose.

Flying is one of the highest skill cap activities in the game, and the people who got good at it, are the ones who spend very significant time doing it. If you want to go up against 15 guys who have spent thousands of hours doing nothing but flying, you need to bring the same thing.

Air in PS2 has become mostly a joke, because the number of people on the ground pulling AA at random, vastly outnumbers the people with the interest, motivation and willpower to keep trying at the air game. The air game is rough. Practically everything can kill you, especially at ranges you have no ability to retaliate. Very few people overall are dedicated enough to stick to it. The people who are, get really good at it, and compared with the average player with 100 hours in an ESF, are significantly better as a result.

Air superiority is a key aspect of the overall flow of battle, this is how the game was designed. If you want to use a soft counter (G2A) to win that battle, you need to allocate pretty damn significant resources to it, or don't bother. If you can't use your hard counter (air) to counter other air, then consider yourself outmatched.

This is where it will be key for the RCCC and MLG (if they ever amount to anything) to pick proper matchups.

If MLG ever does become a thing, people playing in that competitively will be faced with the exact same scenario.

And if you nerf air because of the Nexus, then air becomes even more useless in the 'public PS2 world'.

Rolfski · 2013-09-26, 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by necrate

What makes you say that it isn't already like that? 20% is generous given the current state of the game. Saying that you need 500+ hours to be competitive is ridiculous. Don't use such hyperbole when trying to make a serious argument.

2000% stronger is just another way of saying that you literally stand no chance, not even a little one as good pilot vs a top ace pilot, which is absolutely true for the current state of the air game.

And yes, you really need hundreds of hours to get to that level. To illustrate, I suggest you watch the channel from a player called MattiAce, who spends a significant part of his time on PTS only to train his skills vs other ace pilots.

In this case it was a good match and it was almost tied up at one point. That shows that the strategy used by the winning side was not without its glaring flaws.

I agree and I think its too early to draw to conclusions already that air is too powerful on that map. I can think of a few counter tactics myself I didn't see TR performing in that mach, but air dominance is for sure something to watch out for.

Originally Posted by TorinPS

And if you nerf air because of the Nexus, then air becomes even more useless in the 'public PS2 world'.

I never suggested air to be nerfed, only for levelling the playing field a bit more so mediocre pilots (which is 80+ % of the player base) can have a fun and meaningful time in the air as well.
The upcoming ESF changes, which forces you to choose between reverse thrusting capability (after burner tanks) vs extra armament, look promising in that regard.

TorinPS · 2013-09-26, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfski

I never suggested air to be nerfed, only for levelling the playing field a bit more so mediocre pilots (which is 80+ % of the player base) can have a fun and meaningful time in the air as well.
The upcoming ESF changes, which forces you to choose between reverse thrusting capability (after burner tanks) vs extra armament, look promising in that regard.

This has been a long-running question: How do you make air more balanced so mediocre pilots can contribute to an air battle filled with top level pilots?

Nobody has an answer. Probably because the answer should be: You can't, because they shouldn't be able to.

What you're suggesting is like saying some friends who fool around and play basketball after work together should be able to have a meaningful and fun time against an NBA all-star team. Nope.

necrate · 2013-09-26, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfski

2000% stronger is just another way of saying that you literally stand no chance, not even a little one as good pilot vs a top ace pilot, which is absolutely true for the current state of the air game.

This is not true at all. I think the assessment of being 20% better is more accurate in the current game, although it is still vague to use a number to argue qualitatively. A top pilot will be able to win against much less experienced pilots almost every time in a duel. That does not mean that you stand no chance, because you still can do a good amount of damage against the pilot before you die. Because this game is not about single duels, but rather quite the opposite, it makes sense that a group of top pilots could perform as well as a group of good pilots with 20% more numbers.

Originally Posted by Rolfski

And yes, you really need hundreds of hours to get to that level. To illustrate, I suggest you watch the channel from a player called MattiAce, who spends a significant part of his time on PTS only to train his skills vs other ace pilots.

To outclass nearly everyone else in the game, yes you will probably need to spend hundreds of hours. This is because others will continue to get better as time goes along and you need to keep up. Why shouldn't a guy who spent that much time practicing and making an effort to get better actually be better as a result? However, that is not what you argued previously.

You said, "If you don't spend 500+ hours into flying, you simply have no place in the air", and I replied that this is simply not true. To be competitive you don't need to spend nearly that much time. I would say 30-40 hours of flying (against other pilots! not rocket podding) is sufficient to make you a decent pilot. I hope you understand that there is a spectrum of skill and that not everyone is like MattiAce. You are assuming that everyone in the sky has spent hundreds of hours dogfighting, but from my experiences those people probably only make up close to 1% of people I've fought.

snafus · 2013-09-26, 02:31 PM

I think you guys are getting a little out of hand trying to use the Nexus fight as an argument for over all aircraft balance in PS2. Fighting on the Nexus is night and day difference then your usual play on live server. And you should not take what happens there as evidence of anythings power in the live game.

But on a second note I would like to propose an idea that could make the Nexus a more enjoyable ground focused fight. I have had the pleasure to participate in two 48VS48 matches on the Nexus and both times the deciding factor of the match is air and air alone. This cannot be the case if we want to have a healthy and competitive future for PS2. No one aspect should hold that much sway over the match.

I wish to propose that we enact a new rule of only allowing one squad of air per team to be active. This is by no means an attempt at watering down the tactical options of the matches but actually giving more. By enacting this one squad of air only teams will have to implement the best squad make ups of LIB to ESF ratios. This will also encourage a more consistent air fight during the match as your platoon will be able to supply you with ESF for the entire match.

The other positive attribute created by this change is simply allowing ground to be more relevant. By forcing teams to only have 12 players airborne you will still have a chance to progress the fight even if you lack Air superiority. Though the air wing will still be a devastating factor in the fight it wont be at the degree of match ending power air has now on the Nexus. I feel this will force more skilled combat from the air wings and allow the ground battles to ensue which will be the key factor in encouraging a growing viewership of Competitive PS2 play.