Why K:D, Deaths, streaks and other stats are bad, and how PS2 can evolve the genre

[ArmedZealot]

Originally Posted by Malorn

To provide some more examples:
- Do you blow up that parked galaxy (respawn point) or do you farm it? K is improved by farming it, it is not improved by blowing it up.
- Do you drive a galaxy and park it for your team to help take the base? Or do you hop in a tank/reaver? Piloting the galaxy does not improve your K and only risks making it worse.
- Do you go revive that teammate out in the line of fire? K is put at risk, and you might give someone another kill on you contributing to your own domination.
- Are you the first to breach a door or do you sit back and snipe? K says not to risk the breach, sniping better improves the stat.
- Do you capture the tower or farm the spawn room? K says farm.
- Do you blow the base generator and cap it, or farm the kills? K says farm.

K/D doesn't say to farm or not. Tribes: Ascend uses "Score" as a metric and matches are often drawn out to farm more "Score". Just because your score is no longer tied to killers but to all roles just means medics/galaxy pilots/ support join in drawing out the combat for them to get more "Score" too.

Originally Posted by Malorn

Instead of kill-streaks and dominations, award people for score milestones or support activities like having 50 people spawn out of your galaxy, or capturing 10 territories or other such things. Bounties for such activities are another great way to utilize score as the universal measurement of Planetside success. You could also use score to balance out things like teamkilling/wounding by providing a debuff of sorts that reduces your score generation. So many options here to utilize this universal stat to shape player behavior.

This however is a good fucking idea. I would love for the developers to implement this in a new grief system. Or at least to elaborate on the current.

[Eyeklops]

I disagree. Recording deaths makes people think about self preservation, like people do IRL.

[Shadowrath]

Originally Posted by Eyeklops

I disagree. Recording deaths makes people think about self preservation, like people do IRL.

TL;DR

[Raymac]

Plus K: D ratio is such a ubiquitous tracking stat that it is now as common as ammo. It's a standard feature at this point. I do like the idea of tracking other stats as well and letting the community give more weight to those other stats.

[VioletZero]

Just track a variety of stats. Kills and deaths is okay just as long as it isn't the main focus like in other shooters.

But no killstreaks pls.

[Malorn]

Originally Posted by Raymac

Plus K: D ratio is such a ubiquitous tracking stat that it is now as common as ammo. It's a standard feature at this point. I do like the idea of tracking other stats as well and letting the community give more weight to those other stats.

Just because its always been done does not mean its a good idea.

MMORPGs used to have long xp grinds and people expected this. They even had xp loss on death. Modern MMORPGs have evolved and moved away from these things. This is no different. Just because they've done it and it is expected does not mean it is a good feature.

[Raymac]

Originally Posted by Malorn

Just because its always been done does not mean its a good idea.

MMORPGs used to have long xp grinds and people expected this. They even had xp loss on death. Modern MMORPGs have evolved and moved away from these things. This is no different. Just because they've done it and it is expected does not mean it is a good feature.

I agree with you that there are better stats to track for Planetside, however when people expect a standard feature, that feature better be included, whether or not the elite think it is good.

Using XP loss on death as an example is not a fair comparison because people hated that stuff except for the most hardcore of players. The reason K: D is so common is because soooo many people actually do like it.

[MrBloodworth]

Originally Posted by Raymac

standard feature

Its a standard features. IN SESSION BASED SHOOTERS WHERE THE WIN CONDITION DOES NOT MATTER.

Ahem.

Planetside is a war game. Empire/squad goals need to take precedence over all.

[Malorn]

Originally Posted by Raymac

I agree with you that there are better stats to track for Planetside, however when people expect a standard feature, that feature better be included, whether or not the elite think it is good.

So what? What happens if they don't include deaths as a tracked stat? You think any significant amount of players will stop playing?

What about all the added enjoyment of everyone else in the game becuase it doesn't degenerate into deathmatch?

Using XP loss on death as an example is not a fair comparison because people hated that stuff except for the most hardcore of players. The reason K: D is so common is because soooo many people actually do like it.

They like it because its always been there and they like to measure their importance.

I'm not saying provide no measurement - I'm saying change it. Change it to something universal that takes many different factors into consideration, not just who can minimize deaths and maximize kills.

PS2 is free to play. I could make a VS character and go off into some remote part of a continent spawn him over and over again, and kill him with my NC character. I could pad the hell out of my K stat and appear all over a leaderboard. With dominations, kill streaks, etc. If I'm smart about and don't over-do it, nobody would be the wiser. Can't do that with score because diminishing returns is an obvious solution.

[Raymac]

Originally Posted by Malorn

So what? What happens if they don't include deaths as a tracked stat? You think any significant amount of players will stop playing?

What about all the added enjoyment of everyone else in the game becuase it doesn't degenerate into deathmatch?

No. Obviously I don't think people will say "It doesn't track K/D? Forget it then." Just like people don't say, "That car doesn't have leather seats? Forget it." However, it is a feature that people expect, and it does get factored into their assessment of the game. Just look at how the press from GDC have praised it.

Also, I think it is pretty ridiculous to infer that Planetside will degenerate into a deathmatch just because k/d is tracked. You know better than that, Malorn.

[Blackwolf]

Originally Posted by Raymac

Plus K: D ratio is such a ubiquitous tracking stat that it is now as common as ammo. It's a standard feature at this point. I do like the idea of tracking other stats as well and letting the community give more weight to those other stats.

I like where this thought is going.

Provide more then just the K/D like healing, repair, revivals, vehicle kills (tracked by individual vehicles), vehicle losses.

PS1 included a break down on pretty much everything you did and put it into a merit system that allowed you to wear your merits with pride even if it was damn near impossible to tell who had what merits on their shoulders at first glance. Their mistake was that they started tying in-game rewards like certain vehicle variants and -cough- vehicles -cough- to earning merits. That was what the certification system was for, and should never have been stepped over.

Going for those merits was actually fun, even if the majority of them involved killing an enemy. The streaks were challenging most of the time and pride was reward enough.

[Bags]

Just use your superior teamwork to stomp statwhorers~

[Hamma]

+25 Ownage points for Malorn. Agreed with through and through.

[SUBARU]

Originally Posted by Hamma

+25 Ownage points for Malorn. Agreed with through and through.

Agreed

[JHendy]

Originally Posted by Bags

Just use your superior teamwork to stomp statwhorers~

But what if my team mates are filthy stat whores too?!

The horror...

I completely agree with Malorn. K/D ratio should NOT be the primary stat that sits on the front page of your profile, score should be.

Please be aware that he's not saying that K/D ratio should be completely removed from the game and something you cannot look at, just that it should be an ancillary stat, instead of a prioritised one, seeing as this is a teambased game.

Also, killstreaks make me sick...

And the GUI stinks of BF3. Other than that I'm quite amazed by the potential of what we have here.