Remove KDR - Page 3

RSphil · 2013-03-20, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by Pella

The only people that moan about the K/D stat are the people with a terrible one.

FPS culture, and competitiveness evolves around that very stat.

Win/Lose ratio.

not always true. mine is 2.88 or something and im for it being removed. i think in a game of this sort it hurts it more then anything. but again only imho

Pella · 2013-03-20, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by RSphil

not always true. mine is 2.88 or something and im for it being removed. i think in a game of this sort it hurts it more then anything. but again only imho

Who decided that 2,88 wasn't terrible?

Your perception of what is good and what everyone else thinks is good for themselfs is totally different.

That is the point.

p0intman · 2013-03-20, 01:16 PM

Remove k/d entirely. I agree fully.

DrankTHEKoolaid · 2013-03-20, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by Pella

The only people that moan about the K/D stat are the people with a terrible one.

FPS culture, and competitiveness evolves around that very stat.

Win/Lose ratio.

Not true at all. FPS culture and competitive play started with games that never had a KD ratio. You also have to remember that this is an MMO also, not just an FPS. And because of that there are incredibly lopsided fights, not to mention horrible performance issues that set people back. PS2 is not a competitive E-Sports type game, even if they want it to be.

Also every other MMO I've played doesn't have a KD and they can be just as or more competitive than PS2. Granted they are mostly MMORPGs but still even in their most competitive/controlled PVP forms most don't have stats.

Snydenthur · 2013-03-20, 01:22 PM

This is one of those topics, where you can't blame stats. It's up to what people want to do. Others, who are probably on outfits, that actually try to play objectives, are there for a reason. They want to play objectives. Then there are those, that aren't interested in playing objectives and they tend to just try to kill as much as they can. And of course anything from between, but those are the main categories of players, as I see it.

Removing some stat from the game just doesn't help in any way. People will still want to kill more people than they want to die. And it's not actually very beneficial to just run and die at the objective either, so even the most hardcore objective-only-players care about their kd-ratio, in a way.

There is only one way you can promote objective playing a tiny bit and it's to do something to snipers. I don't mind someone sitting at a hill out of battle waiting for the enemy to stop for few seconds (as you can't really make someone play the game like you want), but they are worse to objective playing than anyone that only thinks about kd-ratio. Tanks sitting at the hill pounding enemy are at least taking some attention from the enemy, but snipers only attract other snipers and that way they are pretty useless. And I do see too much snipers, especially the newer players. And I did say snipers, not infiltrator, since sniping isn't infiltrating.

Assist · 2013-03-20, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by DrankTHEKoolaid

1. Removing KD would obviously imply removing the death stat as well, I thought that kind of went without saying lol.

2. For those saying you use KD to track your progress... really? You need a stat to tell you that you're improving? And again getting a higher KD doesn't necessarily mean you're improving. It could mean you just simply decided to play a different class that day, or started using tanks more often.

3. Many people said to me after this video that camping hundreds of meters from the fight is because of certs not KD, look at games like Battlefield, (closest thing we have to PS2) there are no certs yet people still take a tank and sit on a hill hundreds of meters away. It's because they want a better KD.

4. Some of the best shooters of all time never had a KD or any stats for that matter, you played them because they were FUN, not because of a number.

Bottom line is that I don't think KD by itself is a bad thing, but when a number starts altering how you play, it can negatively affect games as a whole. It promotes camping, not just in PS2 but in every FPS. Furthermore it's not a true indicator, especially in a game like PS2, of how much you're actually helping your game.

2. You seem to think using a stat to show progress is a bad thing? What exactly do you think statistics are for? The entire point is to show how well you play, rather than just assuming you played better.

3. In Battlefield you gained XP from sitting far away at a more consistent rate than charging into a fight. The XP gain is what causes this playstyle, not the K/D. More XP = More Weapons and attachments.

4. The Quake series is my ultimate FPS game. I love all of them, I've played them since the day they were released and still play them to this day. I remember, a week after Quake 1 released, loading the software to the server to allow stat tracking. That was back in 1996. Name me a single great FPS out there that didn't have stat tracking.

You guys seem to think since this stat is shown it's a problem. It's not, it's been shown in game after game for years. It doesn't alter playstyle at all either. The guy farming from his Liberator isn't doing so to improve his K/D, he's doing so for the ridiculous amount of XP.

You guys really should go look at the K/D stats of players rather than assuming everyone is just farming for K/D. No one that I know on Waterson farms for their K/D ratio. I know plenty who farm for XP, and even I can be accused of this. But to farm for K/D? lol K/D is meaningless. Certs, XP, score per hour is not meaningless. But all of these things come back to only one thing - The lack of a reason to not sit at a place farming(XP or K/D). There is essentially no 'end-game' in PS2, so people treat it like an arena DM server. They don't do that because they want to improve their K/D, they do it because there's nothing else worth doing in the game.

Sturmhardt · 2013-03-20, 01:24 PM

They should just never show the deaths, not even on external sites.

.sent via phone.

DrankTHEKoolaid · 2013-03-20, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by Assist

2. You seem to think using a stat to show progress is a bad thing? What exactly do you think statistics are for? The entire point is to show how well you play, rather than just assuming you played better.

3. In Battlefield you gained XP from sitting far away at a more consistent rate than charging into a fight. The XP gain is what causes this playstyle, not the K/D. More XP = More Weapons and attachments.

4. The Quake series is my ultimate FPS game. I love all of them, I've played them since the day they were released and still play them to this day. I remember, a week after Quake 1 released, loading the software to the server to allow stat tracking. That was back in 1996. Name me a single great FPS out there that didn't have stat tracking.

You guys seem to think since this stat is shown it's a problem. It's not, it's been shown in game after game for years. It doesn't alter playstyle at all either. The guy farming from his Liberator isn't doing so to improve his K/D, he's doing so for the ridiculous amount of XP.

You guys really should go look at the K/D stats of players rather than assuming everyone is just farming for K/D. No one that I know on Waterson farms for their K/D ratio. I know plenty who farm for XP, and even I can be accused of this. But to farm for K/D? lol K/D is meaningless. Certs, XP, score per hour is not meaningless. But all of these things come back to only one thing - The lack of a reason to not sit at a place farming(XP or K/D). There is essentially no 'end-game' in PS2, so people treat it like an arena DM server. They don't do that because they want to improve their K/D, they do it because there's nothing else worth doing in the game.

2. Again. You really need to look at a number to tell how good you're doing?

3. In Battlefield people don't camp on a mountain for EXP, if you wanted EXP there is a million ways to get it faster. I could play an entire round of conquest and not shoot a single person and finish higher on the scoreboard than people who do this. THEY DO IT FOR KD, it's obvious.

4. So did the stats software make Quake good? It wasn't a good game until they came out? Also Quake was actually a competitive game, Planetside 2 has a ton of variables that make it not so.

Assist · 2013-03-20, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by DrankTHEKoolaid

2. Again. You really need to look at a number to tell how good you're doing?

3. In Battlefield people don't camp on a mountain for EXP, if you wanted EXP there is a million ways to get it faster. I could play an entire round of conquest and not shoot a single person and finish higher on the scoreboard than people who do this. THEY DO IT FOR KD, it's obvious.

4. So did the stats software make Quake good? It wasn't a good game until they came out? Also Quake was actually a competitive game, Planetside 2 has a ton of variables that make it not so.

The stats didn't change it at all, that's the point. The stats are completely irrelevant to the game. Like you just insinuated, the game play is not effected at all by the statistics of the individual players but by how good the game actually plays. There's no reason to capture a continent right now, so why the hell would I go out of my way to do boring shit for an hour? It's much more fun for a player to go play in a Bio Lab and enjoy their arena-style shooter setting than it is for them to go complete the worthless objectives that this game is supposed to be designed around.

Stats don't change anything with the player mentality. I can give you a perfect example from Quake, and most other FPS games. Capture the Flag - The entire point of the game is to gain more flag captures for your team. That's the ONLY measure of success in the game. Statistics in Capture the Flag meant nothing, yet they are tracked in nearly every current shooter. Your K/D is readily available in BF3 for CTF(or Domination, same shit), but it means nothing to anyone because the game ends based on flag captures.
In Planetside 2 - No one gives two shits if you capture Esamir or Amerish. It means nothing, you didn't accomplish anything by taking it. You don't receive anything worthwhile. It's not a measure of success. The only measure of success in PS2, and the only thing most players care about, is what they're going to spend their certs on and what items they can purchase, or how long until they can purchase the next item. K/D doesn't even come into the equation at all. No one cares about K/D, they care about having 1000 certs saved up for when those Empire Specific Launchers come out.

RSphil · 2013-03-20, 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by Pella

Who decided that 2,88 wasn't terrible?

Your perception of what is good and what everyone else thinks is good for themselfs is totally different.

That is the point.

in a game where size matters k/d should not be a thing bothers real planetside players as you may be shot from any angle from any place. k/d for smaller games like battlefield ect is ok. them games i had very high k/d. id say my k/d is good considering i actually fight on and behind the front lines. imo a game of this size k/d should be the deciding factor on how people play.

i have seen too many people standing around door ways instead of pushing the fight and taking out the enemy.

as i have said in all my posts this is my opinion. having played fps games for many, many years i have seen how k/d effects gameplay and for planetside i see it effecting it in a negative way.

Dragonskin · 2013-03-20, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by Pella

The only people that moan about the K/D stat are the people with a terrible one.

FPS culture, and competitiveness evolves around that very stat.

Win/Lose ratio.

Most FPS games focus around TDM and variations of that. COD and Halo are MLG games... Battlefield isn't why?

It's not that type of game. Planetside 2 is also not that game. Wins/Loses don't really matter in games that have so many variables outside of the players personal control. KDR doesn't matter because you are supposed to want to capture the objectives like in the BF series.

I don't care about my KDR. In my signature I have one character that is negative and the other is positive. That mostly boils down to the outfits I am running with because they both operate differently and approach things differently.

I am fully aware of how to increase my stats. I have upgrades on my lib, MBTs and ESFs that could allow me to farm up to my hearts content. I don't really enjoy kill whoring so I mostly attack the objective... again even though I have played almost every FPS under the sun since Doom... Battlefield is more my game type that arena style Halo/COD.

Assist · 2013-03-20, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by RSphil

i have seen too many people standing around door ways instead of pushing the fight and taking out the enemy.
.

Why should they push through that doorway? If they stand inside that shield barrier and shoot out they're going to gain a lot more than the 1000 XP you get for the base capture. Has nothing to do with death, has nothing to do with dying, has everything to do with XP gain.

You think people bought rocket pods to get a high K/D? Zephyr to get a high K/D? No they buy them to get more XP so they can buy more items, get closer to BR100, feel like they've accomplished some sort of advancement in the game. Taking that base, gaining 1000 xp, means nothing when they can sit inside that shield and get 2x the amount of XP of those tards running out of that shield dying before they do any damage to get XP.

Make that base worth 10,000 XP, may change things(and open up other issues). Might be worth those few deaths to try to get that generator down. Right now, there's no reason whatsoever to charge to your death to get that generator down - the reward simply isn't there compared to the alternatives.

But people are really driving home on the wrong subject, it's not KDR that is the issues - It's XP/Hr that is the issue and it's not an easy fix.

DrankTHEKoolaid · 2013-03-20, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by Assist

The stats didn't change it at all, that's the point. The stats are completely irrelevant to the game. Like you just insinuated, the game play is not effected at all by the statistics of the individual players but by how good the game actually plays. There's no reason to capture a continent right now, so why the hell would I go out of my way to do boring shit for an hour? It's much more fun for a player to go play in a Bio Lab and enjoy their arena-style shooter setting than it is for them to go complete the worthless objectives that this game is supposed to be designed around.

Stats don't change anything with the player mentality. I can give you a perfect example from Quake, and most other FPS games. Capture the Flag - The entire point of the game is to gain more flag captures for your team. That's the ONLY measure of success in the game. Statistics in Capture the Flag meant nothing, yet they are tracked in nearly every current shooter. Your K/D is readily available in BF3 for CTF(or Domination, same shit), but it means nothing to anyone because the game ends based on flag captures.
In Planetside 2 - No one gives two shits if you capture Esamir or Amerish. It means nothing, you didn't accomplish anything by taking it. You don't receive anything worthwhile. It's not a measure of success. The only measure of success in PS2, and the only thing most players care about, is what they're going to spend their certs on and what items they can purchase, or how long until they can purchase the next item. K/D doesn't even come into the equation at all. No one cares about K/D, they care about having 1000 certs saved up for when those Empire Specific Launchers come out.

To me taking a base is with my outfit/team/friends is a success. I don't need a stat telling me that I won something either, that's kind of my entire point. Taking a hard fought base in PS2 is much more gratifying to me than winning a 10 minute round of (insert other FPS here).

I can't really talk about Quake since I never played it but are you really gonna try and tell me that nobody camps in FPS because they want to improve their KD? Seriously?

typhaon · 2013-03-20, 02:06 PM

LOL!

Call me crazy - but it doesn't sound like they are de-emphasizing it...

By adding a consumable item to refresh your KDR - that I assume will cost $$$ - it sounds like they are actually emphasizing the stat and trying to capitalize financially on how much players care about this stat.

* For the record... I don't think there is anything wrong with the stat.

DrankTHEKoolaid · 2013-03-20, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by Assist

Why should they push through that doorway? If they stand inside that shield barrier and shoot out they're going to gain a lot more than the 1000 XP you get for the base capture. Has nothing to do with death, has nothing to do with dying, has everything to do with XP gain.

You think people bought rocket pods to get a high K/D? Zephyr to get a high K/D? No they buy them to get more XP so they can buy more items, get closer to BR100, feel like they've accomplished some sort of advancement in the game. Taking that base, gaining 1000 xp, means nothing when they can sit inside that shield and get 2x the amount of XP of those tards running out of that shield dying before they do any damage to get XP.

Make that base worth 10,000 XP, may change things(and open up other issues). Might be worth those few deaths to try to get that generator down. Right now, there's no reason whatsoever to charge to your death to get that generator down - the reward simply isn't there compared to the alternatives.

But people are really driving home on the wrong subject, it's not KDR that is the issues - It's XP/Hr that is the issue and it's not an easy fix.

Originally Posted by typhaon

LOL!

Call me crazy - but it doesn't sound like they are de-emphasizing it...

By adding a consumable item to refresh your KDR - that I assume will cost $$$ - it sounds like they are actually emphasizing the stat and trying to capitalize financially on how much players care about this stat.

Ya basically, and by being able to reset it, it becomes more meaningless.