AV weapons - Page 3

Doppler · 2003-12-22, 11:44 AM

I see tanks everywhere too, your point?

The reason you see them (and Ill pull and post the thotbot stats) is because people have this issue with being aircraft fodder, and no a phoenix wont save you if a reaver comes down, but it might save the guy after you.

Madcow · 2003-12-22, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by Duffman

yea AV weapons are suppose o be used in groups and thats why they nerfed the striker because one person could own any vehicle.

They nerfed the Striker because it was too powerful against MAXs and air. It was never too powerful against vehicles, and now it's certainly not worth using against vehicles. One person could not own any vehicle, unless the driver and gunner were both mildly retarded. I unloaded 12 Strikers (pre-patch) into a Magrider and didn't kill it, and was out of missiles. Do you have any idea how long it takes to connect with 12 Strikers? If the gunner hadn't been clueless they would have wiped me out long before I fired half of those.

I think the main problem right now is that the armor on MAXs is classified exactly the same as the armor on vehicles. If something is AV, it's automatically good against MAXs. The fact that the MAXs have a fraction of the armor in vehicles automatically makes this a bad deal for them.

And to whoever made the statement about MAXs killing people in 2 shots (therefore making the deci a fair weapon) please point me to which MAX you're referring to. Only the Scattercannon comes close, and it's still more than 2 shots. The VS has no MAX that can kill a softie in less than a dozen or so shots, the TR has the Pounder and I'm not sure how many 'nades it would take but it's more than 2, the NC has the Scatter which is the most effective 1 on 1 w/ infantry. So which MAX was it again (because it sure sounded like you thought most MAXs could do it)?

Madcow · 2003-12-22, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by Doppler

I see tanks everywhere too, your point?

The reason you see them (and Ill pull and post the thotbot stats) is because people have this issue with being aircraft fodder, and no a phoenix wont save you if a reaver comes down, but it might save the guy after you.

Thott still hasn't updated from yesterday, but previous stats are here:

http://www.thottbot.com/planetside/2003-12-14/1/

Lancer has fallen right off the map, Striker is still used by a decent amount of people and a lot of NC have the AV cert. I credit this less to it being an incredibly useful AV weapon (it's great against MAXs, okay against vehicles) and more to the fact that it's actually fun to use and a different aspect to the game. The NC I created has only that and medium, and I've had a decent amount of fun with him in the time I've played him. Close to 20% is actually a lot more than I would have thought any of the AVs would have.

Mudflap · 2003-12-22, 12:24 PM

Fewer than 10% of Vanu have AV. That explains why I'm the only one shooting at armor. I don't think that the Lancer is a crappy weapon against vehicles, it just takes 3 people with em to scare a tank away, and I haven't seen 3 Lancers since they were nerfed. I didn't have a Vanu I played regularly before the nerf, so it's no biggie to me.

I think it takes at least 3 people to scare away any tank. Everytime I shoot a tank, they move to take me out instantly. This alone shows that they perceive me as a threat. I'm sure I'm doing more damage than anyone else. The Pheonix should rock, since they have no clue where it's coming from typically. I think that's one reason some people complain that NC is overpowered. The other empires need more AV certs!

Queensidecastle · 2003-12-22, 12:24 PM

When a person who has both the AV cert and SA cert continuously and always grabs a decimator loadout to defend a tower, you KNOW there is a problem

Mudflap · 2003-12-22, 12:37 PM

To defend a tower.....

There is the flaw in your reasoning. Tower defense is against MAXes, not vehicles typically. Besides, when going against an NC tower, about 100% of the time there's a pheonix user or two shooting out of the top levels.

Pheonix=AV
Deci=Anti-Max

I know the Deci is good AV, but not on an open battlefield. You'll rarely hit a vehicle, and even more rarely hit a plane.

Doppler · 2003-12-22, 01:18 PM

Actualy depending on the distance its not that hard to lead targets with the deci. Plus you hit a vehicle with you av, so what, he's either driving off or getting ready to own you. Towers are even better for deci's as you can lean over the railing fire down, hit hard and move.

Rayder · 2003-12-22, 01:22 PM

My VS char used to have the Lancer, but I traded it in for Armored Assault. Lancer IMO is the best Anti-MAX AV weapon for direct line of site contact. It takes 6 shots to take out a MAX, and the charge up time gives you some time to line your shot up.

GreyFlcn · 2003-12-22, 01:49 PM

Thing is Rayder, now that they changed Phoenix to have 250m range, and 3 second reload, and Dummy fire it can do everything Lancer could do against maxes AND MORE.

6~7 second Indoor Max kill? Sure. 3 Shots, 2 Three second reloads.
You can even hide behind a corner most the time.

Outdoor MAX killing? HAH, do I even need mention it?

Outdoor Infantry killing? All too easy, all too often.

Good backup Pistol for Agile? Check.

AA Tower defence? Check.

Sit inside a courtyard wall, inside a ring of mines, cloaked, right next to an AMS terminal? Check.

Queensidecastle · 2003-12-22, 02:15 PM

AV from a distance is everybit as good at killing MAXs is as a Decimator except it blows for taking out vehicles. The Decimator is Anti-everything. I dont know about you but any vehicle including aircraft that shows up on the mini-radar map is game for a decimator. I know I certainly dont have any trouble whatsoever blowing up vehicles with decimators from tower walls, and MAXs are even easier to blow up.

So what you have is a non-AV weapon that is better at AV than AV is. That certainly doesnt make sense to me especially considering that AV was clearly designed with Inventory loadout burdon to be the ballancing factor. The decimator has no inventory issues when ttk and total damage of AV per pack space unit is concerned.

Seer · 2003-12-22, 02:18 PM

I've always been on record as saying the 3 shot infantry lancer kill wasn't too bad in terms of balance, considering the Lancer's shortcomings. I haven't played Sere (oldtime AV/HA rexo) since the change, even though he still has the lancer and lasher on him.

I also want the old Lasher back. The slow firing, slow moving one. People underestimated the crap out of that thing. *sigh*

Anyway, I wish they'd consider reviewing the Lancer. It's still a powerful weapon, but it's always been difficult to use properly and that alone may acount for the statistical chasm.

Madcow · 2003-12-22, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by GreyFlcn

Outdoor Infantry killing? All too easy, all too often.

I would like to see the Phoenix toned down against softies. That thing can tear a softie apart pretty quickly, and the NC becomes the only empire with something that can so efficiently counter snipers. If an NC base is under assault they can stand near an AMS (as already mentioned) without fear of using up all their precious ammo and send those missiles out hitting anything that moves. Unless I'm mistaken, it's 3 Phoenix's to take out a soft target which makes it just as efficient as taking out a MAX. In the case of a sniper, the Phoenix user has the added benefit of almost certainly being able to place themselves where the sniper has no chance of getting a shot on them.

In regards to the obvious question, yes a sniper can move beyond the 250 m. Phoenix flight limit if the landscape allows. The Lancer got toned down against infantry and the Striker has never been useful against infantry, now the Phoenix seems a bit too effective in that regard.

Doppler · 2003-12-22, 04:02 PM

First off if your using phoenix's for counter snipe, your opponents are idiots. It is very easy for an infantryman to dodge an incoming phoenix missle, secondly lets get this away from an empire frest by saying that all AV weapons need some help.

Rayder · 2003-12-22, 04:22 PM

Grey, the Phoenix will never match the Lancer for direct line of sight anti-MAX. You've got the travel time for the rocket (which is much slower compared to the Lancer's bolts), the reload time, and the camera switch time. If a MAX got hit by a dumbfire phoenix at range, then that guy's an idiot. The Lancer can fire it's 6 shots faster than the Phoenix can fire the 3 that are needed to kill a MAX. Also, the Lancer has more ammo, so you can afford to miss a few.

Rbstr · 2003-12-22, 04:36 PM

I just have to say the logic behind 3 people firing two shots each to an Ant is flawed, firstly they reload time is Imence and the ant has time to flee, you will rarely have 3 pheonix user fire on the same target, or even have 3pheonix users near each other, unless its a big battle. AV just need to do more AV damage, but nothing else, before the peroblems with AV were the AA and AM damages, those have been fixed but now tanks are nearly invonerable(sp) to all but the most massive amounts of AV users, the last i checked it takes nealy 8 phoenixes to take out a lighing, thats almost a minute worth of firing if the thing isn't right up next to you (pheonix has to be shot guided to the target, and detonated before you can reload, then reloading takes a very ond time compared to other things, then you have to guide the next shot tall the way there , and repeat)

Oh yeah it takes 3 pheonix shots to kill an infantry man, if you hit him dead on(agile not reinforced) they are incredibly hard to hit because they ar samll and fast and agile. You can't come back around to hit stuff if you miss either witch some peole seem to think, the flight time is to short.

Also if you are inside an AMS you can't see anything from the cammera mode, it acts liek the missle is in the bubble too. And indoor max kills are impossible with all the people there and the enemy infantry running around