THE solution for Darklight. - Page 3

Madcow · 2004-08-19, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by DeepStrikeck

I am a rexo sniper (VS Markov) and I have DL, I hardly ever "flicker" and I only do that when I'm running through a base and suspect a cloaker (spits being planted, repeater/magscatter kills, etc). When I'm sniping I only use DL to scan the area right when I arrive and I switch positions so frequently (about every 10 shots) that I don't get killed by cloakers that often. With the 3rd person dl, its kinda retarded and I dont use it because its hard as hell to aim when in 3rd person. Its just easier to use it in FPV.

If everybody played like that, I'd have no beef at all with the implant. If I do something stupid to give away that I'm there, hunt me down like a dog. That's deserved. No issue. You don't use 3rd person which is one of my huge issues. I don't think people try to aim in 3rd person, they just use it to see if somebody is sneaking up on them, switch to first person, swing and fire. Unfortunately, that's not how a lot of people play.

I would also like to see the Dark Light implant not initialize if you are inside the infil suit. Honor among thieves, or something like that. This idea will piss of a number of infil, but if it increases the fantastic fights you sometimes get when neither of you has the implant then it would be well worth it.

TheN00b · 2004-08-19, 01:16 PM

I personally care less whether or not Darklight Vision is removed or not. I am a grunt, but I have not played with Darklight for quite some time. I feel that using it is akin to cheating, and when I used to use it, I flickered it often, even if I had seen absolutely nothing suspicious. That's simply smart tactics. Now, I merely take my hits from infiltrators if they try and attack me; given that I have much greater health than them, as well as a powerful weapon, I still win against them the majority of the time. The best tool for balancing, obviously, would be to remove the implant itself. Equally obviously, this will not be immediately, if ever, possible: The majority of the grunt community would scream for their mothers, and cancel their subscriptions. However, I do not believe the answer lies in buffing the abilities of the infiltrator to avoid the naked eye: Let the watchful, cautious players be able to see them slightly (Just figure out how to fix the gamma). The solution potentially lies in implementing the following changes:

1) Darklight Vision now takes 25 points of stamina per activation (idea courtesy of Dharkbayne).
2) Darklight Vision now has a mandatory minimum usage time of 15 seconds.
3) Darklight Vision now has a per/second stamina drain of .5 SP/PS when still, and 3 SP/PS when moving.

Implementing the above three ideas, in addition to the Devs understanding and fixing the gamma problem, will, in my opinion, finally balance the stealth needs of infiltrators.

By the way, don't use the Repeater or Beamer: Simply stick an AMP in the back of a snipers' head, and open fire. Voila; dead sniper.

_-Gunslinger-_ · 2004-08-19, 01:19 PM

I totaly DISAGREE with boomer. Those additions you suggested = no fucking way. Cmon 'cloaking' is our defence its a damn good one at that. However you are correct about DL, it is far too powerful.

1) DL is forced to a 1x zoom. This would force first-person. And limit thier detection abilities. They would have to make actual sweeps, and it would be painfully obvious when they were. However they could still defend the CC and if you were made they still could get you.
2) Add a crouch-walk to the game that limits your crouched speed by 50% but makes you 95% invisable.
3) Make it so that if you select the all names option in gameplay all the names are actually rendered up to say 75m. Tired of not being able to see a persons life/armor let alone name because theire are 4 prowlers and 10 spitfires around a tower.

Add that and belt-fed TR maxes and everyone will be happy.

Edited for clarity.

Lartnev · 2004-08-19, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by TheN00b"

1) Darklight Vision now takes 25 points of stamina per activation (idea courtesy of Dharkbayne).
2) Darklight Vision now has a mandatory minimum usage time of 15 seconds.

Those figures are way too high imo.

TheN00b · 2004-08-19, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by Lartnev

Those figures are way too high imo.

How else are you going to avoid bloody flickering?! The way I see it, Darklight Vision needs to be severely limited. I feel that infiltrators need to fill a much larger role in this game, and their current role simply cannot be expanded the way Darklight Vision is now. Flickering is the primary problem, and the changes I propose severely curtail, if not completely prevent, any sort of flickering, as well as lowering the power of the implant in general. And that is my goal.

Boomer · 2004-08-19, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by _-Gunslinger-_

I totaly DISAGREE with boomer. Those additions you suggested = no fucking way. Cmon 'cloaking' is our defence its a damn good one at that. However you are correct about DL, it is far too powerful.

1) DL is forced to a 1x zoom. This would force first-person. And limit thier detection abilities. They would have to make actual sweeps, and it would be painfully obvious when they were. However they could still defend the CC and if you were made they still could get you.
2) Add a crouch-walk to the game that limits your crouched speed by 50% but makes you 95% invisable.
3) Make it so that if you select the all names option in gameplay all the names are actually rendered up to say 75m. Tired of not being able to see a persons life/armor let alone name because theire are 4 prowlers and 10 spitfires around a tower.

Add that and belt-fed TR maxes and everyone will be happy.

Edited for clarity.

Dont you think that making it take 5 seconds for Dl to catch you is worth it? I think it is. How is that Balony? (purposely mispelled)

As for the snipers that hate us, which are apleanty, you have the right to hate us. I love snipers. I eat them for breakfast. The only thing I dont like about them is their Insta gib gun. A sniper with DL that you are stabbin/miss with boomer = almost certain death. I am killed probable about 2 times a session by snipers because of my carelessnes. Most of the time I find a smoking corpse over the big black mark of a boomer, and get some cool pistols/grenades.

So, I love snipers. but I dont like snipers with Darklight. I think We should be able to purchase a cert or two to be able to "stealth". because right now, it just isnt fun to find a Rexo with DL.

Madcow: You dont like the MAGscatt, but I love it. 3shots kills an Agile, 4 kills a Rexo.
The beamer is 2nd on my list. somewhat inaccurate, but you gotta love it. I think its 5 hits to kills an agile and 8 to kill a rexo? Or am I mistaken?
Next would be the AMP, just because its fairly accurate, its a versitile gun, and it kills quick enough for me.
The repeater, i dont like it. I dont know why, I just dont think it has a Bang to it. It takes too long to kill someone with, but is excellent for sniping.

I would love to hack a flail thats sitting its ass on a hill kill whoring, and to decon the driver inside, getting the kill, would be awesome. " You noob! Get your ass in a Tank!" I would /tell him until I earn a spot on his Ignore list.

The only problem with flails, is when you are close to one, placing boomers, spitfires, and a guy in a reaver/tank/whatever starts spam-fireing the flail. 3 seconds Im dead, and the guy who is spam-fireing gets my BEP. Then i get /tells like "get away from the flail when Im shooting at it jackass" or stupid things like that. Just another day's worth of people on my ignore list.

Madcow · 2004-08-19, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by Boomer

Madcow: You dont like the MAGscatt, but I love it. 3shots kills an Agile, 4 kills a Rexo.
The beamer is 2nd on my list. somewhat inaccurate, but you gotta love it. I think its 5 hits to kills an agile and 8 to kill a rexo? Or am I mistaken?
Next would be the AMP, just because its fairly accurate, its a versitile gun, and it kills quick enough for me.
The repeater, i dont like it. I dont know why, I just dont think it has a Bang to it. It takes too long to kill someone with, but is excellent for sniping.

I would love to hack a flail thats sitting its ass on a hill kill whoring, and to decon the driver inside, getting the kill, would be awesome. " You noob! Get your ass in a Tank!" I would /tell him until I earn a spot on his Ignore list.

The only problem with flails, is when you are close to one, placing boomers, spitfires, and a guy in a reaver/tank/whatever starts spam-fireing the flail. 3 seconds Im dead, and the guy who is spam-fireing gets my BEP. Then i get /tells like "get away from the flail when Im shooting at it jackass" or stupid things like that. Just another day's worth of people on my ignore list.

You might want to try the Repeater again, Boomer. It's much nicer since the MA buff since they actually buffed the rounds and not the specific gun. No damage degradation for the first 75 meters, so Beamer and Repeater are just about equal now for longer range plunking on people. I enjoy the Mag less now because of those 4 shots. It's faster to stab people, plus with the small magazine it doesn't allow for much in the way of mistakes.
I hate AMP. Just personal preference, I won't even loot them when my inventory is totally stripped.
I used to enjoy single-handedly killing flails with mines but most are now smart enough to undeploy and drive off now whereas most usually sat still when the flail was new. Now I try to draw them into trying to run me over so I can get more mines in.
I'll have to look up BoomerNC sometime. I have a friend I run with pretty often, and when you get a semi-coordinated group of infils who are decent at killing in an area you can really have a blast.

Boomer · 2004-08-19, 02:09 PM

Cool. Ill retry the repeater, its just that I never got any kills with it. I havent tried it after the latest patch, but I will.

And madcow, I am outfitless on Markov and Emerald, and I wouldnt mind joining your outfit. That way we could always infiltrate.

Red October · 2004-08-19, 02:16 PM

Those are some pretty big restrictions on the DL....but it would most certainly stop the "flicker" (heh...worst enemy of an Infiltraitor...t3h F1ik3r). But I can hear the OF people crying me a river already (must really like thier cheap kills). I think any limitaton on DL will get the "river of tears" from the OF people. Eliminating it completely won't go over well either. Its pretty easy to see a cloaker moving, killed two in a tower the other day while in Agile/Cycler. They were crouch walking....while everyone was looking at the door's for incoming enemies...I kept an eye on the edges of the stairs. How many idiots forget to do that and then scream nerf the infil...we can't see him. If they get close enough and are moving....you can see them. So the likely hood of DL "disappearing" is unlikely. Thus why I suggested we are given more opportunities to wreak havoc behind enemy lines...which is what were really supposed to do.

Honor among thieves? Well there isn't any, hence why I took DL. But forcing them to de-cloak like Personal Shield would most certainly curtail its use. Just like Personal Shield, it will become useless.

Regaurdless, something needs to be done with DL and/or Infiltraitors....were a dieing breed....literally and figuratively.

Boomer · 2004-08-19, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by Red October

Those are some pretty big restrictions on the DL....but it would most certainly stop the "flicker" (heh...worst enemy of an Infiltraitor...t3h F1ik3r). But I can hear the OF people crying me a river already (must really like thier cheap kills). I think any limitaton on DL will get the "river of tears" from the OF people. Eliminating it completely won't go over well either. Its pretty easy to see a cloaker moving, killed two in a tower the other day while in Agile/Cycler. They were crouch walking....while everyone was looking at the door's for incoming enemies...I kept an eye on the edges of the stairs. How many idiots forget to do that and then scream nerf the infil...we can't see him. If they get close enough and are moving....you can see them. So the likely hood of DL "disappearing" is unlikely. Thus why I suggested we are given more opportunities to wreak havoc behind enemy lines...which is what were really supposed to do.

Honor among thieves? Well there isn't any, hence why I took DL. But forcing them to de-cloak like Personal Shield would most certainly curtail its use. Just like Personal Shield, it will become useless.

Regaurdless, something needs to be done with DL and/or Infiltraitors....were a dieing breed....literally and figuratively.

I always saw PS, but never used it. is it good for cloaking?

Mandalore · 2004-08-19, 02:34 PM

While I agree with Boomer that stealthers are totally underpowered and useless right now, his "fixes" for DL are a tad extreme. If you look at it from a cloakers point of view, DL is cheap in the fact everyone has it and it is VERY hard to move about in most situations without being spotted by the naked eye, let alone by DL. From a grunt's point of view, there are WAY too many killwhore stealthers who only play as a cloaker to get knife/boomer kills and flaunt it like a trophy. I'm on both sides of the fence here, and both sides have valid points.

However, the fact everyone can get DL as an implant with almost no downside is pretty lame. A few suggestions come to mind to balance DL a bit.

1) Make it so that there is a 5-10 second timer before DL can be DEACTIVATED. This would ensure that there is no random DL flickering, and that DL would ONLY be used if a stealther was suspected. A LOT of good stealthers plan their movements carefully and spend time slowly sneaking into a base/tower, only to be ripped off by a BR6 with a JH who happened to flick on DL for no reason.

2) Another change would be to take DL off the implant list entirely. DL could now be an equipment cert for 1 or 2 points, and would require you to carry a small pair of goggle in your inventory, about the size of a box of ammo. You could still bind DL to a single key, and flick it on and off at will. The balance here is that certs are being spent on it now, and it will take up some inventory space.

3) My final suggestion actually has nothing to do with DL, but is an idea to give the cloaker a valid role again. Right now, ANYONE can do what a cloaker can do, aside from actually cloaking. When I think of cloakers, I think they would be the ones to do the best job laying traps or hacking consoles. Perhaps give cloakers the benefit of silent hacking, and take away the red laser that the REK gives off when you're in an infil suit. Perhaps also allow the infil suit to report enemy positions on friendly radars. By this, I mean that when a cloaker is behind enemy lines, he can use his suit to make enemy soldiers and vehicles show up on all friendly radars within a certain radius. Maybe 100m or so. A cloaker would kind of be like a mobile interlink now. Of course, it would take between 20-30 seconds to complete the uplink, and you would have to be still. Also, the infiltration suit would now be bumped up to 3, or even 4 cert points because of this benefit.

Now these are just my suggestions, so don't flame me if you can't make a legit counter-suggestion to any of these. I do agree DL should be put into check somehow, but not totally gimped.

Meursault00 · 2004-08-19, 02:46 PM

Funny, I'm a sniper, I love you cloaker guys. When they attack they become easy targets for me. Unless that guy has a boomer then I've gotta whip out the quick reflexes.

On a general note, calling people noobs, nubs, and such is seriously uncalled for. It only shows your own immaturity. Same if you actually hate a particular player role. If you're annoyed, okay, but if you hate then you're taking this game way too seriously than you ought to.

On topic, I think the only changes I would support of darklight is a limitation to the range. Maybe 3 meters or so, just so I don't see a cloaker from halfway across a room. I would also support a longer timer, but that's about it.

Ultimately, I hate to say, the pleas from the infiltration part of the community will win the devs over. A minority will conquer the majority, its wrong I know, but it has happened in the past with Planetside.

Spee · 2004-08-19, 02:55 PM

The only time I ever recall "flickering" is if I hit one of those invisible walls. You know the type, the ones that stop you dead in your path, kinda like if there was a cloaker there. Look at the spot. Turn on. No cloaker, turn off. If there is a cloaker, bangbang.

But other than that, the only time I use DL is CC guarding, and sweeps when someone VWC's.

Lartnev · 2004-08-19, 03:09 PM

I think that people will flicker whatever, and they'd probably take the 10 seconds of activatrion in exchange for know there isn't a cloaker about. Although it will produce a downside to turning it on.

And I said the figures were too high, not that they were bad ideas

Madcow · 2004-08-19, 03:27 PM

I'll go over my (refined) wishlist again for Dark Light:

Items that must be changed:

1. No Dark Light in 3rd person

Items that should be changed:

1. Use of Dark Light must be locked on for 5-8 seconds.

Items that I'm on the fence on, but leaning towards liking the ideas:

1. Dark Light has a 'cool down' period after use where it can not be turned on again (20 seconds or so).

2. Dark Light does not work in vehicles.

3. Dark Light can not be used while in the infiltration suit.

And of course, all these are independent of the fact that Enhanced Targetting needs to be fixed yesterday. That bug is getting out of hand.