Abortion! - Page 3

Arshune · 2003-02-14, 11:58 PM

Valid points, Nav, but finances aren't the most shallow argument ever. A lot of abortions take place because the mother doesn't want to take care of the child, and a big part of taking care of a child is financial responsibilities.

Yes, you could put a child up for adoption, but also remember that pregnancy is an ordeal. Some people rationalize that they shouldn't go through what is considered one of the most painful things a human being can go through for someone they don't even care enough about to take care of.

Navaron · 2003-02-15, 12:02 AM

HAHAH

You just shut down your own arguement. But first, point by point

1) "I believe there are more then 5 qualities that define life"

I was referring to the 5 scientific requirements (now 6 I believe).

2) "But i wouldnt call it human. Its a parasite. It feeds off of its host for 9 months before becoming semi dependent. "

A parasite is the way that something obtains sustainance, so yes a human can be a parasite.

3) "What if it was your girlfriend who was pregnant? Or you? What if your only 16, or 17? I dont know anyone that age that could support a child. Will you doom 2 or 3 lives? Or will you kill something that isnt human, wont be concious for months, and could ultimatly destroy your life?"

And here's where you damn yourself. I got my gf pregnant at 16, and was a father at 17. We kept our daughter, and now my gal is a nurse in the NICU, and I am a Junior in College with my private pilots license and almost have my ppi license. I will graduate shortly with my Bachelors in Aviation Administration with a specialization in security. Mist can vouch how much money my family had. We were poor. I am a thousand times better off for having my daughter. I am a bigger, stronger person, and am such a better person than I would have been otherwise.

4) "wont be concious for months"

My boss was in a car wreck, he's been unconsious for about 7 weeks now. I have no lost love for him, since he's unconcious can I kill him? I don't think that's legal.

Lexington_Steele · 2003-02-15, 12:03 AM

Originally posted by {BOHICA}Navaron
Cause we don't eat fertilized eggs?

No, because we are a higher being than other animals. Point is that they are two seperate beings. The mother does not have the right to infringe on her childs life or lack thereof. A pig willl never become human.

When you start killing humans because of what traits they do or don't exibit is when you have a severe problem. What makes an unborn child not human? It doesn't speak, reproduce, or do much of anything. Neither do old people, mentally handicapped, or stroke victims. Should we get rid of them because it is more "convinient" for their respective family members?

I am sure fertalized egges are a delicacy somewhere.

I don't see a fertalized egg as any more human than an egg and a sperm sitting next to eachother. But apparently you make a distinction between before and after they combine because of certain traits it posesses or doesn't posess.

What makes the fertilized egg more special than than the egg and sperm? Why is that distinction the special one. Why isn't the difference between a first trimester fetus and a third trimester fetus the special distinction?

Navaron · 2003-02-15, 12:03 AM

"Yes, you could put a child up for adoption, but also remember that pregnancy is an ordeal. Some people rationalize that they shouldn't go through what is considered one of the most painful things a human being can go through for someone they don't even care enough about to take care of."

Pain killers. Don't feel a thing. I've watched with my own eyes.

Arshune · 2003-02-15, 12:07 AM

Originally posted by {BOHICA}mistled
. You're not commiting murder every moment of the day because we are not talking about potential.

If we're not talking about potential life, then killing a fetus isn't wrong because that's what it is, potential. Say a fetus could live outside of the mother and it could never develop further, it wouldn't really be much of anything, would it? But given time, it becomes something, even if it isn't something at present. So if you don't care about sperm cells dying, why do you care about something that's technically still just "potential?"

mistled · 2003-02-15, 12:10 AM

Sorry guys. but I'm starting to get a little pissed here after reading a couple of these comments....

Originally posted by Hellsfire123
I believe there are more then 5 qualities that define life. And i know the ability to reproduce is one. How can an undeveloped fetus reproduce?

So if you're impotent, you aren't human?? So every single person on the planet that hasn't reached puberty isn't human?? So every woman who is pass the point in her life where she can conceive isn't human?? Think before you post.

Anyway, weather the fetus is alive or not is not the question. Is abortion moral? Ethical? Should it be legal?

And just how in the hell do you expect to answer the legality or morality of something if you aren't even sure if it's alive?? Again, think before you post.

And id be interested to see how some of the pro-life people would answer the questions if they were the ones involved.

And why don't you go fuck yourself for having the balls to act like you know anything?? You've no idea who you are talking to on these forums. We're all strangers. You've no clue about anyone's life on here. I'm sick of people acting like everyone who has been through this situation is pro-death. Once again I'll say to think before you post.

Navaron · 2003-02-15, 12:11 AM

"that's what it is, potential."

No, once it has passed conception it is no longer potential, it is human.

Jeez, I'm gonna use your arguement, Lets say we pull out a 6 year old, and stop his growth right there. He's not good for much. Why not wax him too. I mean he's not getting anywhere, or helping anything, plus he's expensive.

mistled · 2003-02-15, 12:11 AM

Originally posted by Arshune
If we're not talking about potential life, then killing a fetus isn't wrong because that's what it is, potential. Say a fetus could live outside of the mother and it could never develop further, it wouldn't really be much of anything, would it? But given time, it becomes something, even if it isn't something at present. So if you don't care about sperm cells dying, why do you care about something that's technically still just "potential?"

You obviously didn't understand the entire point I was making. A fetus is not potential any more than you are potential. It's life has already begun. Once it had it's own DNA pattern, it's life started. The potential that the sperm had has been realize at that point in time.

mistled · 2003-02-15, 12:14 AM

Originally posted by Arshune
I think people who say that human life begins at conception should rethink their position. At conception, an embryo is little more than a cell taking off with a wing and a prayer. I feel that until the brain has completely formed in the fetus, life hasn't officially begun.

Science states that life begins at conception. It's not like we are picking what feel right, it's fact. It's got nothing to do with what you feel.

Navaron · 2003-02-15, 12:15 AM

"You've no idea who you are talking to on these forums. We're all strangers. You've no clue about anyone's life on here. I'm sick of people acting like everyone who has been through this situation is pro-death. Once again I'll say to think before you post."

I'm with mist here, (suprise). You're waaay outta line. I'd bet good damn money I'm the only person on this whole forum who was a father at 17. What the hell. I'm not sure where you get off telling me what I think, when I'm just about sure of shit you've never been there. I'd like to see where you would be when you see that sonogram.

Navaron · 2003-02-15, 12:17 AM

"I feel that until the brain has completely formed in the fetus, life hasn't officially begun. "

You gotta come up with some facts. People can live with less than 40% of their brain. Watch TLC sometime. Can we kill all of them too?

Arshune · 2003-02-15, 12:18 AM

Originally posted by {BOHICA}mistled
You obviously didn't understand the entire point I was making. A fetus is not potential any more than you are potential. It's life has already begun. Once it had it's own DNA pattern, it's life started. The potential that the sperm had has been realize at that point in time.

But what makes the fetus above a chimpanzee or a cow? From a purely technical standpoint, the chimpanzee is probably a higher form of life than the fetus, yet we experiment on them in extremely cruel fashion for our own benefit every day. Yes, the fetus is alive, but is it alive enough to consider it a human yet? When does that fetus get that "special something" that makes it a person?

And Nav, I can see this is a sensitive issue to you, and no one is asking you to say if the decision is right or wrong for yourself, just if you think the option should be open to other people. What if someone wasn't a big enough person to handle such responsibility?

ABRAXAAS · 2003-02-15, 12:19 AM

For abortion . And I walk away

SandTrout · 2003-02-15, 12:19 AM

If we're not talking about potential life, then killing a fetus isn't wrong because that's what it is, potential. Say a fetus could live outside of the mother and it could never develop further, it wouldn't really be much of anything, would it? But given time, it becomes something, even if it isn't something at present. So if you don't care about sperm cells dying, why do you care about something that's technically still just "potential?"

Sientificly speaking, a fetus isn't potential life. It does indead proform all functions that define life by sientific standards. If you bring up reproduction, the cells of a fetus reproduce very rapidly. Just because you're not screwing a girl every second of the day doesn't mean you are not alive every second of the day. This is not a potential human at this point, this is a liveing human parasite with the potential of dieing.

It is not fully developed, or even self-sustaining, but then again, fully developed humans must also kill something else to survive. If you argue development, humans aren't fully developed for nearly 2 decades after they are born.

From a moral standpoint, life should only be taken to preserve other life. We hunt to eat, we fight for control of food and land, which can be esential to our lives, our immune systems kill millions of liveing organisms inside of us.

The arguement of abortion realy lies in how you define life.

This debate will never change anyone's view on this subject. I've seen arguements go on for hours in chat rooms with noone giveing an inch to the other position. I realy dont know why I wasted this much time writeing this post.

mistled · 2003-02-15, 12:21 AM

Someone answer this for me.

Why is it that anytime there is a religion thread, everyone talks about how mighty science is and how God can't exist because science can't prove it... And people tend to agree because, after all, how can science be wrong?... but then, when abortion comes up, everyone suddenly wants to forget science. Why is that?? Maybe because science supports the fetus?? Imagine that. Science bitchslaps a topic and suddenly people avoid it.

In religion, which is entirely about morality, people want to talk about science. But in abortion, which is about both legality and morality, we want to leave science at the door even though it is more suited to the discusson.

Isn't that a bitch?? Makes you wonder...

... and yes, I do use science in religion debates. Science is valid everywhere. I don't pick and choose when I like it.