Drivers Main Weapon

[SgtMAD]

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

Your math doesn't account for several things.

-Ease of operation. The gunner can focus solely on gunning. Assuming he has an AV gun, he will easily be more effective at putting out damage than a driver who has to split his concentration between two activities. The PPC on the magrider would improve dps by ~50%. Rarely gets used.

-Other threats on the battlefield. The vehicles are not in a vacuum. 2 tanks with no gunner = dead meat to any air that happens by.

-Cost. Getting two tanks will be more expensive than 1.

-And frankly, they could do something as simple as up the hitpoints when you add one of the turrets, or perhaps there is an active defense that the gunner can control.

all the tank with the driver/gunner combo has to do is pick his ground,all they need is a few obstacles or small hills to work with and its over for both single-manned tanks ,add in some half-assed air support and the single-manned tank is a death trap

damn, that sounds like a lot of fun

[Raymac]

Originally Posted by dsi

This is obviously a bad decision to anyone who has played Planetside vs Any game with 1 player tanking.

It takes a huge part of teamwork for many people and shoves it down the toilet.

I might be able to accept that argument IF there wasn't a secondary gunner seat in the tanks. If they turned the MBTs into simply beefed up Lightnings, then I might agree with you, but that's not what happened, so your point doesn't really hold water.

Plus when you factor in the issues that CutterJohn points out, your point gets even weaker. Teamwork will still be an essential component of the game.

Then just try to imagine someone that never played Planetside before, they spend their skill points in getting a tank. "What do you mean I can't shoot? WTF is this?" And that's likely one of the main reasons they made the change.

[sylphaen]

Then just try to imagine someone that never played Planetside before, they spend their skill points in getting a tank. "What do you mean I can't shoot? WTF is this?" And that's likely one of the main reasons they made the change.

If PS1 is any indication, skilled killwhores would not use tanks anyways.

[dsi]

Originally Posted by Raymac

I might be able to accept that argument IF there wasn't a secondary gunner seat in the tanks. If they turned the MBTs into simply beefed up Lightnings, then I might agree with you, but that's not what happened, so your point doesn't really hold water.

Plus when you factor in the issues that CutterJohn points out, your point gets even weaker. Teamwork will still be an essential component of the game.

Then just try to imagine someone that never played Planetside before, they spend their skill points in getting a tank. "What do you mean I can't shoot? WTF is this?" And that's likely one of the main reasons they made the change.

That is exactly what these things are, beefed up Lightnings with room for one more. All the secondary gun does is turn tanks into jacks-of-all-trades, sure you'll be less useful without the secondary person, but you're going to do just fine alone. That isn't a sign of a teamwork oriented game.

The first time I played Planetside I was absolutely amazed that the game wanted me to work directly with other players to win, not work and have someone else tag along. I was excited.

This is a poor design decision along the lines of instant hop-in/hop-out, both of which are signs of re-targeting to a much... simpler audience at the cost of gameplay.

EDIT: Reddit has a nice thread going on about this as well.

[sylphaen]

A lot of people are on your side dsi and we have expressed our opinion countless times.

Let them it their cake and see how it tastes. Who knows ? A good result might come out from a recipe perceived as terrible.


Or we may just choke over it when we finally taste.

One things is certain, some people will like it ! Until they realize that PS2 tanks are there to be a bonus target for Aircav and engineers. But if they can instantly bail out of the vehicle, it should not be a huge bother.


As I mentionned the last time I actively participated in a vehicles' discussion, if it's not good, I will play infantry. And if PS2 is a huge disappointment (note: I sincerely hope not), I'll simply do something else.

[Raymac]

Originally Posted by dsi

That is exactly what these things are, beefed up Lightnings with room for one more. All the secondary gun does is turn tanks into jacks-of-all-trades, sure you'll be less useful without the secondary person, but you're going to do just fine alone. That isn't a sign of a teamwork oriented game.

The first time I played Planetside I was absolutely amazed that the game wanted me to work directly with other players to win, not work and have someone else tag along. I was excited.

I know it's been said a number of times before, but I'll say it again here. Allowing the driver of a tank to shoot is not going to kill teamwork in PS2. That is such a ridiculous overreaction.

Plus, there is a difference between encouraging teamwork (driver can shoot, but more effective with a gunner) and forcing teamwork (driver is a chauffeur that is useless unless on voice chat with the gunner).

If Planetside 2 strives to be the sandbox game that it is claiming, they aren't going to pigeon hole players like that, especially for something as basic as a tank.

So until SOE says they are removing outfits or squads, then don't play the "no teamwork" card.

[Raka Maru]

Hehehe how did this debate start again?

[dsi]

Originally Posted by Raka Maru

Hehehe how did this debate start again?

SOE made a poor design decision

Raymac: Please tell me how much teamwork Battlefield tanks require. All 0% of it, the driver is doing the majority of the work while the secondary gunner gets to do drive-bys on inf.

[BorisBlade]

Originally Posted by LZachariah

I'm surprised that people are still confused about this issue. Higby said, multiple times, without any ambiguity, that the pilot of each vehicle will always have use of the vehicle's primary weapon, and the reason for this is: The pilot is the one who's been buying certifications for the vehicle. Since they are the one who's gone to all the trouble spending experience and resources to give their Magrider +mobility, +speed, and +armor (or whatever), they receive the benefit of being in control of the primary weapon of the vehicle. Additional passengers may be given secondary weapons.

~Zachariah

I know they say that but its not a good enough excuse to put in worse gameplay. I want to customize my tank like they say but i want to drive. I dont want to drive and gun at the same time, if i have to do that i just wont drive it period. At very least we need an option to let a second gunner slot open up to take over the turret. Now that means fixing the terribad mag to once again have its main gun on a turret. Its just better for overall gameplay, otherwise its just a armor/firepower buff instead of a vehicle. Its boring, much like BF3 tanks which are terribad. PS1 had the best vehicle designs and was very innovative with their non-solo approach. Sad to see PS2 go backwards just to appeal to the A.D.H.D. crowd.

[Raka Maru]

Ok then, my 2cents again...

1) I want to cert a MBT and have the main gun 'cuz I'm the owner. Not be defenseless until I find someone competent.
2) I would like to be able to turn over the main gun and secondary gun if I pick up a good gunner because I just want to do my badass driving.

#1 I believe is the reason they gave the main gun to the driver. Now the tank is less effective unless they create option #2

[Traak]

Yeah, certing tank regrettably didn't mean you certed "not having bad gunners".

[Rivenshield]

Originally Posted by dsi

This is obviously a bad decision to anyone who has played Planetside vs Any game with 1 player tanking.

It takes a huge part of teamwork for many people and shoves it down the toilet.

Yep.

They *could* make AV gunners' turrets really kickass against other armor -- as in more damage than the main gun, as has been suggested -- but that won't prevent the game from becoming Tankside. It'll ameliorate the problem. Not eliminate it. Brute force and numbers will always count for all.

/le sigh

[CutterJohn]

Originally Posted by dsi

Raymac: Please tell me how much teamwork Battlefield tanks require. All 0% of it, the driver is doing the majority of the work while the secondary gunner gets to do drive-bys on inf.

Know what else doesn't require teamwork? Infantry. People bitched and bitched, so now everyone gets to control their own legs and own gun. They don't have to pick whether they are the legs or arms anymore, like a game with real teamwork has. Why are all infantry players such killwhores? Can't they see the obvious benefits of teamwork?

But we all know that argument is ridiculous. Its ridiculous for vehicles too. Forced teamwork is false teamwork. If there is no option other than doing it its not teamwork at all. It wasn't even difficult. There's no tactics or coordination involved, just reporting. Reaver behind us. Tank to the front. Softy over there behind the tree.

Originally Posted by Rivenshield

Yep.

They *could* make AV gunners' turrets really kickass against other armor -- as in more damage than the main gun, as has been suggested -- but that won't prevent the game from becoming Tankside. It'll ameliorate the problem. Not eliminate it. Brute force and numbers will always count for all.

/le sigh

PS was tankside. It was far and away the most common and useful combat vehicle. Most everything else people just took out for a lark(buggies..), or because it had a useful secondary role.

[Sirisian]

Originally Posted by BorisBlade

At very least we need an option to let a second gunner slot open up to take over the turret. Now that means fixing the terribad mag to once again have its main gun on a turret.

Agreed. I've made this point a few times. I feel Higby and Tray are getting too far into making customizations to make this change and it scares me since I play VS and it's fine if I'm in a tank just sniping enemies with the main cannon, but there are situations where that's not the case.

I've always been for the driver with the main gun since they're spending the points. The option to release the main gun to the secondary gunner is a totally valid tactic. The direction of vehicles as infantry armor essentially is a really nice system in my opinion. It actually bothers me that they want to put AV secondary weapons.

[SKYeXile]

Originally Posted by sylphaen

If PS1 is any indication, skilled killwhores would not use tanks anyways.

Ill possibly be giving the mag a whirl, it could be a farming machine or it could not.