Planetside User Interface - Page 3

Atuday · 2012-01-15, 10:46 PM

The original UI was good if sometimes a bit clunky in the menu department in the first game. I am hoping this time around we will have faster menus except in the command area where I hope to have a ton of new options. Lets un-streamline command and give them and entire UI with which to give orders in high detail.

Casual · 2012-01-16, 12:52 AM

I'm actually pretty floored anyone within the industry could hold this opinion about game pads. Is this real life right now?

Originally Posted by CyclesMcHurtz

Not everyone likes this - it's harder on the hands and wrists for some to use a mouse and keyboard.

Valid point. This is actually the opposite for me though, I can't use my PS3 game pad for more than an hour before I have to stop holding it.

Originally Posted by CyclesMcHurtz

Twitch games are easier to control with a properly setup pad

What? How? What benefit does holding a thumbstick in the desired direction have over snapping to whatever you want to aim at immediately regardless of it being 180 degrees or 5 degrees off from what you're currently pointed at?

Originally Posted by CyclesMcHurtz

In game, the controller has a definite advantage if done right - a mouse has no defined center point, it's all feel

I'm not sure I understand your point. What benefit does this provide exactly? We're talking about FPS games, right?

Originally Posted by CyclesMcHurtz

The key is to design the control scheme to fit the device.

True, gameplay in shooters is also molded around the input device as well. To me, this is the most blatant example of game pads being inferior for shooters.

Example : In most new shooters movement is slow and damage is extremely high, in combination with weapons usually being hitscan or near hitscan with tremendous rates of fire. This is done to mitigate the fact that it is extremely hard to track a moving target with a gamepad.

Instead of having to track a target to get a kill you just have to damage them for a split second, effectively eliminating the problem by removing those scenarios from gameplay.

Originally Posted by CyclesMcHurtz

There are other limitations to keyboards that present a significant problem as well - the number of keys that can be pressed at once, and what the keyboard can tell you about them. All keyboards have limitations, while the controllers actually report each and every button press and pressure accurately. I have one keyboard where if I hold down [A] and [W], I cannot press [G] - it simply doesn't register. There are many places to find this out, but all keyboards have a particular setup that just won't work.

Yes, pressure sensitivity is the one thing keyboards do not have over game pads. Point conceded.

However, the rest of what you're talking about is simply due to using bad keyboards that weren't intended for simultaneous keystrokes. I'm pretty sure most new keyboards have "anti ghosting" (I think this is what they call it) to allow 10+ keys to be pressed and recognized at once. Some steelseries keyboards you can literally press everything at once without problems.

Lastly, regarding your original point that most developers don't know how to play to the strengths of game pads I would argue the complete opposite. Gameplay is now tailored to gamepads with no alterations to the PC versions to account for the fact that people have better aim, and can better follow moving targets, etc.

In the last few years shooter gameplay has slowed down while weapon damage has simultaneously gone through the roof. This is in part due to trying to make games easier and generate mass appeal, but it's also due to building gameplay around game pads.

This is fine and dandy, except they do the same exact thing for the PC versions of these games where people aren't using the input device they're building the game around.

The result is a lackluster experience when played with a keyboard and mouse, with the gameplay no longer requiring good mechanics to do well.

Case in point, BF3, that game is so casual it hurts my soul to play :

Magpie · 2012-01-16, 05:08 AM

I think games like The sims, C&C games like Red alert 2, age of empire, grand theft auto and old school shooters like half life/counter strike worked very well on keyboard and mouse but i think the modern shooters of today like Call of duty, battlefield, halos there all easy to use and people have got used to controllers for 10 years.

the hardcore pc gamer might not have used consoles when younger and not "Memory Mapped" the controller, its like learning to type fast on a keyboard it takes time. not saying controller is hard or anything but most of us are proby in are 20+ 30s and up and its been split in between pc and console games

Just think the younger Gen of gamers ( the ones that scream or sing down the mic ) most of them play console games E.G my mates son whos 7 thinks mouse and keyboard are crap and xbox rules.

im sorry to say but pc games in general are becoming less common, i live in uk we have shops like Game and Gamestattion and they dont sell hardy any pc and e.g Battlefield 3 trade in at for xbox is £15.00 but the same game on pc its £7.50 and they both retail at the same price.
so when a young kid go's to buy the latest game he/she pretty much gets forced into buying a console based game. back when planetside 1 game out it was more common for both pc and console.

I might be alone here but i do think there should be a well mapped out Controller for planetside 2, and for any old school gamers you always have the keybored and mouse to use.

Soe is a business they have to make money and going for the younger Gen by making it controller friendy is in there best interest

**CyclesMcHurtz** · 2012-01-16, 05:23 AM

Casual, you make some great points. It's clear you put a lot of though into this, as have I. It also seems certain you don't enjoy using joystick-based controllers for FPS games, and there is certainly nothing wrong with that. I think we can all agree that developers cannot just make one UI and expect it to work equally well for both mouse and controller.

I have probably spent equal time in the last 30 years playing both with a keyboard and a joystick of some form. Each game has it's own quirks. Some games I like to play with controllers, and some I play with keyboard and a mouse. I cannot imagine Street Fighter or Tekken with a mouse, and it's hard to find an FPS that does a decent job on a controller.

-----

More off topic, but a point I do feel important to bring up is that we actually tested some keyboards just last week to see what keys were doing odd things. I felt I was having some trouble in a shooter, and what I confirmed was indeed true - if I strafe and run, I cannot throw a grenade with the default key setup. The keyboard I use daily, which is a modern keyboard purchased within the last year, has the problem I was describing (the A,W,G problem).

Other keyboards were also tested and they all had strange keys combinations that don't work. There's a couple of great references on the web for this, but the source of the problem is actually the anti-ghosting circuits. They cut off keys they cannot determine. Most of these are nonsensical - such as one keyboard could not report all four arrow keys down at once, but others could. None had true ghosting, and only one (the most expensive one) reported the WRONG key in a few cases. One great test (and this is truly funny in some cases) is to try the following:

1. Open up a basic text editor
2. Hold down BOTH shift keys
3. Type: THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPS OVER THE LAZY DOG

My home machine (less than a year old) produces:
[ TEQUICKBRONOXUMSOVERTEAZYOG ]

The best keyboard we found only missed the "O" - and that was NOT a gaming keyboard.

SKYeXile · 2012-01-16, 05:33 AM

Originally Posted by CyclesMcHurtz

1. Open up a basic text editor
2. Hold down BOTH shift keys
3. Type: THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPS OVER THE LAZY DOG

My home machine (less than a year old) produces:
[ TEQUICKBRONOXUMSOVERTEAZYOG ]

The best keyboard we found only missed the "O" - and that was NOT a gaming keyboard.

A good reason not to bind spring to shift.

Casual · 2012-01-16, 07:08 AM

Originally Posted by Magpie

I think games like The sims, C&C games like Red alert 2, age of empire, grand theft auto and old school shooters like half life/counter strike worked very well on keyboard and mouse but i think the modern shooters of today like Call of duty, battlefield, halos there all easy to use and people have got used to controllers for 10 years.

the hardcore pc gamer might not have used consoles when younger and not "Memory Mapped" the controller, its like learning to type fast on a keyboard it takes time. not saying controller is hard or anything but most of us are proby in are 20+ 30s and up and its been split in between pc and console games

Just think the younger Gen of gamers ( the ones that scream or sing down the mic ) most of them play console games E.G my mates son whos 7 thinks mouse and keyboard are crap and xbox rules.

im sorry to say but pc games in general are becoming less common, i live in uk we have shops like Game and Gamestattion and they dont sell hardy any pc and e.g Battlefield 3 trade in at for xbox is £15.00 but the same game on pc its £7.50 and they both retail at the same price.
so when a young kid go's to buy the latest game he/she pretty much gets forced into buying a console based game. back when planetside 1 game out it was more common for both pc and console.

I might be alone here but i do think there should be a well mapped out Controller for planetside 2, and for any old school gamers you always have the keybored and mouse to use.

Soe is a business they have to make money and going for the younger Gen by making it controller friendy is in there best interest

There are plenty of articles that indicate PC gaming is growing, but I think the thing is that console gaming is just growing exponentially faster.

Also, I don't think console gamers are going to outright abandon their platform and games of choice just because of PlanetSide 2, as such I think it would be foolish for SOE to build PlanetSide 2 around a demographic that probably wont be playing the game.

To be honest, I think its safe to say PlanetSide 2 will be wildly successful even if it requires Quake-like levels of mechanics (which it wont, and no one is expecting it to, just making a point) for you to not to get obliterated by better players.

Originally Posted by CyclesMcHurtz

Casual, you make some great points. It's clear you put a lot of though into this, as have I. It also seems certain you don't enjoy using joystick-based controllers for FPS games, and there is certainly nothing wrong with that.

Thank you. Your assumption regarding me not enjoying game pads is correct, but I wasn't trying to imply there was anything wrong with enjoying game pads for FPS either. Wasn't aiming to offend at all, just voicing my opinion about it.

Originally Posted by CyclesMcHurtz

I think we can all agree that developers cannot just make one UI and expect it to work equally well for both mouse and controller.

Definitely agree, this is what I was trying to get at towards the end of one of my earlier posts. I feel like developers build gameplay and everything else around game pads and just don't bother to change anything when translating the game to keyboard and mouse, leading to a lackluster experience on PC with an overwhelmingly flattened bell curve of skill.

Originally Posted by CyclesMcHurtz

Some games I like to play with controllers, and some I play with keyboard and a mouse. I cannot imagine Street Fighter or Tekken with a mouse, and it's hard to find an FPS that does a decent job on a controller.

Of course, I would never dream of playing something like Dark Souls on a mouse and keyboard. I wasn't trying to say mouse/keyboard is the best input device for every genre of game.

FPS gameplay *can* be shaped around how game pads function differently, but I think a lot is sacrificed to make that work. For example games like Quake, Unreal, Tribes, and even PlanetSide to a lesser extent do not function ideally on a game pad.

Originally Posted by CyclesMcHurtz

More off topic, but a point I do feel important to bring up is that we actually tested some keyboards just last week to see what keys were doing odd things. I felt I was having some trouble in a shooter, and what I confirmed was indeed true - if I strafe and run, I cannot throw a grenade with the default key setup. The keyboard I use daily, which is a modern keyboard purchased within the last year, has the problem I was describing (the A,W,G problem).

Other keyboards were also tested and they all had strange keys combinations that don't work. There's a couple of great references on the web for this, but the source of the problem is actually the anti-ghosting circuits. They cut off keys they cannot determine. Most of these are nonsensical - such as one keyboard could not report all four arrow keys down at once, but others could. None had true ghosting, and only one (the most expensive one) reported the WRONG key in a few cases. One great test (and this is truly funny in some cases) is to try the following:

1. Open up a basic text editor
2. Hold down BOTH shift keys
3. Type: THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPS OVER THE LAZY DOG

My home machine (less than a year old) produces:
[ TEQUICKBRONOXUMSOVERTEAZYOG ]

The best keyboard we found only missed the "O" - and that was NOT a gaming keyboard.

THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUPS OVER THE LAZY DOG

Done with steelseries 6gv2, and yeah, I get your point. Not a lot of keyboards function as they should. This one is the closest I've gotten without trying out custom ones.

Also, out of curiosity, which keyboard worked perfectly? A customized Filco?

Lastly, to reiterate, my posting was not meant to be inflammatory or offensive sorry if it came off as such.

Shogun · 2012-01-16, 08:03 AM

THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPS OVER THE LAZY DOG

done with logitech g11

will ps2 get a predefined profile for logitech g13?

HE QUIC BROWN OX UMP OVER HE Y OG
ouch, my msi gamerlaptop internal keyboard sucks ;-)

good to know that the coders working on ps2 really put effort into such things.
and that they know other fps devs did it wrong.
we love your feedback to our concerns and all the things we learn from it!

Elude · 2012-01-16, 09:32 AM

THE UICK BROWN FOX JUMPS OVER THE LAZY DOG

I used a logitech deluxe 250. Great experiment I missed the Q

, that was fun haha.

On an unrelated note towards the battle of devices... It would be awesome if all keys or at least nearly all of them could be bound in PS2. It absolutely drives me nutts when I'm unable to bind a certain key, this generally happens in console ports but rarely ever happens in PC exclusives.

basti · 2012-01-16, 01:36 PM

THEQCKBRWFXJVERTHELAZYG

Logitech G15.

And i never had a problem with games.

More importantly: QUICK GRENADES? DONT DO THAT! NO! JUST NO!
It just FORCES people into grenade spam.

T MAN · 2012-01-16, 02:32 PM

HEQUIKBROWNFOXJUMPSOVERHELAZYDOG
Done with my microsoft x6 keyboard

On the subject of keyboards and mouse, Mouse acceleration is one of the worst things that can be in a game. If it has acceleration it can't be played competitively and if it's bad enough, the game can't be played at all.

Things like this wouldn't be an issue at all if they were back where they belong in the options menu like real PC games used to have. Most modern games have a bad attitude. They tell you how to play, save when they want not when it's convenient or desirable for you the player and so many other things that I the player should be able to decide. This was stuff purged from PC games after we managed to acquire them years earlier so it's going backwards.

Such options can make the game go from playable to completely unplayable; much like the lack of adequate subtitling, colour-blind options, key binding/controller options, etc.

Things like this MUST be options as standard. It's sad that some developers are so short-sighted and lacking in empathy that we end up fighting for it.

Planetside 2 should'nt have a problem with this since it is being developed for the PC only.

Lorgarn · 2012-01-16, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by basti

THEQCKBRWFXJVERTHELAZYG

Logitech G15.

And i never had a problem with games.

More importantly: QUICK GRENADES? DONT DO THAT! NO! JUST NO!
It just FORCES people into grenade spam.

THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPS OVER THE LAZY DOG

Logitech G15.

My G15 is old too, bought many many years ago. About half a year after it's initial launch I believe.

basti · 2012-01-16, 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by Lorgarn

THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPS OVER THE LAZY DOG

Logitech G15.

My G15 is old too, bought many many years ago. About half a year after it's initial launch I believe.

This is odd. We have the same KB, but get different results?

IS yours with Blue or Orange light?

dachlatte · 2012-01-16, 03:59 PM

this test says absolutly nothing about the need -or lack of need- for console controllers. my keyboard fails the test completely but i never had any problems in any games.

imo support for console controllers has no real place in an MMOFPS. dont dumb down the interface because 5 people want to use an inferior controller. the mouse gives us direct access to the whole screen. dont make me cylce through my weapons sequentially(bf3 comes to mind) or any nonsense like that.

**CyclesMcHurtz** · 2012-01-16, 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by dachlatte

this test says absolutly nothing about the need -or lack of need- for console controllers. my keyboard fails the test completely but i never had any problems in any games.

It's not supposed to, it simply refers to anti-ghosting. REALLY OLD keyboards would INSERT extra keys in that test, newer ones drop occasional keys. It all stemmed from me having trouble typing too fast and the shift keys not reacting fast enough - a completely different discussion.

Back on topic -

Don't worry about the UI - the guys working on it are great at their job, and the concerns here shouldn't be a worry - and that's what I have to say on THAT

Shogun · 2012-01-16, 04:25 PM

Originally Posted by CyclesMcHurtz

Don't worry about the UI - the guys working on it are great at their job, and the concerns here shouldn't be a worry - and that's what I have to say on THAT

that´s the important part

as long as they know that just building a controller ui and porting it to keyboard/mouse will make us rage everything should work out fine