Improvement: Tank destroyers - Page 3

MrKWalmsley · 2012-04-26, 12:24 PM

One good way to stop a tank rush:
MINES!

Look, the point of a rush is that it is quick. How can a tank destroyer or even several tank destroyers defend against a tank rush if they have a VERY long reload time? The numbers would have to be nearing equal to compensate for inevitable misses, causing the rushers to have time to flank the TDs, ultimately dooming them (due to their slow nature and the fact that they need to "pack up", they would never be able to turn around to get them quicker than the tanks can circle them.

And if you're going to say that they should be placed in areas where they cannot be flanked then you are also asking the developers to re-design vast spans of their map to suit this one type of vehicle, and in such areas all that would probably end up happening is TD vs TD battles or just an easy Liberator strafe!

The best defence against them are mines. But if you really want to reduce the frequency of tank rushing, do you know what would be easier for the developers for you to request? To turn the tanks back into driver, gunner. And I would be right behind you on that, but not this.

Noivad · 2012-04-26, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by cryosin

Rolling armor is a great strategy for open world combat.

Here is the counter system:
Tanks = Tanks( DUH)
Reavers > Tanks
Ground AA > Reavers
Tanks > Ground AA

This post was excellent - Bring back ADA = Air Defense Artillary - DO NOT put AD on tanks - it never will be realistic. Planetside appeal for many is the teamwork involved with multiple person, multiple different role vehicles where more then one person had to work together to kill something linke in a Raider or a deli, or a sky guard. Thats what Outfits were all about. We don't want 3 types of outfits - infantry - tanks - and air. If you gonna specialize outfits then make if so there are ADA outfits like in the real world. ADA is found moving with the infantry, tanks, and yes even air bases to keep the air ports free of enemy air. Make Planetside realistic in every way. Make it team work heavy. make it so if ur with a team u get the most resourses not solo play.
Planetside 1 was a great game for the teamwork. not where everone got to drive a vehicle that could do everything.

Figment · 2012-05-02, 09:47 AM

Once had an idea for a PS1 common pool TD, called the Vanquish.

But of course that's the old PlanetSide style and leitmotive.

Just now was doodling a bit and just made some basic PS2 TD concepts with different configurations and principles that at least somewhat fit the new art direction (mind, these are just napkin size 10 min. doodles). (click images for bigger size).

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/b...D_Concepts.jpg

Then something hit me: the driver/gunner debate.

What if...

Heavy tanks: gunner main gun / driver secondary gun
Tank Destroyers: driver main gun / gunner secondary gun

Then the advantage of the gunner is at all times 360º weaponry.

PredatorFour · 2012-05-02, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by MrKWalmsley

One good way to stop a tank rush:
MINES!

Look, the point of a rush is that it is quick. How can a tank destroyer or even several tank destroyers defend against a tank rush if they have a VERY long reload time? The numbers would have to be nearing equal to compensate for inevitable misses, causing the rushers to have time to flank the TDs, ultimately dooming them (due to their slow nature and the fact that they need to "pack up", they would never be able to turn around to get them quicker than the tanks can circle them.

And if you're going to say that they should be placed in areas where they cannot be flanked then you are also asking the developers to re-design vast spans of their map to suit this one type of vehicle, and in such areas all that would probably end up happening is TD vs TD battles or just an easy Liberator strafe!

The best defence against them are mines. But if you really want to reduce the frequency of tank rushing, do you know what would be easier for the developers for you to request? To turn the tanks back into driver, gunner. And I would be right behind you on that, but not this.

Tank destroyers arnt meant to get up close to tanks, theyre not as maneuovreable. They are meant more as artillery pieces hitting hard from afar. Figgy`s drawings are cool, showing them to be bulky , heavy tanks with hard hitting weaponry. Id love it if we see more vehicles like this! I like the scarab design and the `Trminator` too lol

Shlomoshun · 2012-05-03, 08:18 PM

IT's a tough one, basically you end up with the never ending game of what is the hard counter to what? In terms of Armor, the hard counter should be Air to Ground, also Engineers (mines), as well as plenty of soft counters (Heavy Infantry, MAX, Base Emplacements).

The one I can't quite figure out is Air Superiority....what's the hard counter of Air 2 Air....is it the Lightning or Anti Air MAX's or what?

CutterJohn · 2012-05-03, 09:41 PM

Originally Posted by Shlomoshun

IT's a tough one, basically you end up with the never ending game of what is the hard counter to what? In terms of Armor, the hard counter should be Air to Ground, also Engineers (mines), as well as plenty of soft counters (Heavy Infantry, MAX, Base Emplacements).

The one I can't quite figure out is Air Superiority....what's the hard counter of Air 2 Air....is it the Lightning or Anti Air MAX's or what?

Obviously. An air superiority fighter lacks dedicated ground attack weaponry. If the enemies are bringing out lots of fighters to shoot down your attack aircraft, counter with ground AA.

Figment · 2012-05-04, 04:03 AM

Originally Posted by Shlomoshun

IT's a tough one, basically you end up with the never ending game of what is the hard counter to what? In terms of Armor, the hard counter should be Air to Ground, also Engineers (mines), as well as plenty of soft counters (Heavy Infantry, MAX, Base Emplacements).

Tank Destroyers and tanks are simply different forms of heavy ground AV, they simply have different gameplay, like buggies and light tanks.

The one I can't quite figure out is Air Superiority....what's the hard counter of Air 2 Air....is it the Lightning or Anti Air MAX's or what?

Probably they will create Wasp type custom modifications to ES aircraft. You can't figure it out because aircav in the air is its own counter. There's so few niche units that it muddles the clarity of gameplay in terms of rock-paper-scissors, tbh.

Gonefshn · 2012-05-04, 12:23 PM

Best tank destroyer ever....

If they include this then I am all for the idea.

In all seriousness though your really just asking for a mobile deploy able AV turret. I'd rather let tanks duke it out, instead of a hard counter I'd rather just see the better tank battalion overtake the other.

Figment · 2012-05-04, 04:37 PM

A tank is a mobile turret.

This is a mobile bunker.

The T28 (later called 105 mm Gun Motor Carriage T95) was a prototype heavily armored tank destroyer, designed for the US Military during the Second World War. It was originally designed to be used to break through German defenses at the Siegfried Line, and was later considered as a possible participant in an invasion of the Japanese mainland. It had no conventional turret, giving it a comparatively low profile. Its total weight when fully equipped would have reached ninety-five tons. The armor was very thick compared to tanks of the time, in some places up to twelve inches thick (thirty centimeters). This was considered heavy enough to provide protection from the 88 mm gun used by German heavy tanks.

Gonefshn · 2012-05-04, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by Figment

A tank is a mobile turret.

I said a mobile deployable AV turret. meaning it has to be stationary to fire.

your really just asking for a mobile deploy able AV turret

Either way, my point stands. Let's let the mobile turrets duke it out. and let the best mobile turret battalion wins.

Figment · 2012-05-04, 05:08 PM

Who says you can't fire on the move with a tank destroyer? And really, do you honestly think a deployable turret will be useful in the field? Field Turrets are stationary targets that cannot at all dodge fire, but they have 1080 degree fire. So no, they're not the same thing, at all.

Play some world of tanks Tank Destroyers to see how they work.

They may have for instance a higher rate of fire, higher accuracy (more stable platform) and higher caliber and lower profile than a tank, at the cost of a fixed turret, or they may even have a turret, but at the cost of armour thickness and gun caliber.

They're not at all like deployable turrets, they're more like sniper tanks, blocker tanks and frontal storm ram tanks (take heavy beating frontally and keep advancing, deflecting shots and simply shrugging off hits with heavy sloped frontal armour at the cost of overall armour). The main thing is, most TDs (some have turrets) are vulnerable in the side, which makes them quite different from other tanks in how you take them out. And that's fine.

Gonefshn · 2012-05-04, 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by Figment

Who says you can't fire on the move with a tank destroyer? And really, do you honestly think a deployable turret will be useful in the field? Field Turrets are stationary targets that cannot at all dodge fire, but they have 1080 degree fire. So no, they're not the same thing, at all.

I was basing what I said on what a lot of people in the thread were saying. People saying to use it in a defensive role as a hard counter for tanks, and people discussing having it deploy or need to stop moving to be fired.

The tank in my original post, though ridiculous and from an N64 game, is exactly like the tank destroyer you are describing now. Full front armor, heavy gun, lower armor on the sides and rear.

I can see the difference in how these function in the feild, it's a question of tactics and how you approach the enemy. A regular tank would be much more mobile and versatile while a tank destroyer is meant to hold the line or push it forward.

I like the direction that they are going with the vehicles already, lower numbers of vehicles but more customization on the ones they are offering. If you need to have a tank destroyer type vehicle why not make it a sidegrade to the MBTs instead of creating a new vehicle. I could see a tank destroyer variant to a Vangaurd or any of the tanks with heavier front armor and a larger turret, just sacrificing mobility and side armor.

If your looking to introduce a TD thats the way to do it in my opinion. This sounds like it can easily just be a sidegrade for MBTs.

Figment · 2012-05-04, 05:38 PM

Alright never mind then, got confused with who you were argueing.

But no sidegrading.

Different platform. Dedicated roles, please.

Sidegrading a tank to a TD would be like sidegrading a handpistol to a sniper rifle, IMO.

Gonefshn · 2012-05-04, 05:49 PM

To each his own, I guess a new vehicle wouldn't bother me but it still seems like a sidegrade to me.

And yea lol, I think we are kinda on the same side here

This is what I was talking about, from the original post.

Originally Posted by VioletZero

On top of that, in order to fire, they must lock down their vehicle first. Which can take some time. And without a turret, they are limited to a small cone in which they can target enemies. They also have a VERY long reload time. So they're easily overwhelmed.

Figment · 2012-05-04, 05:52 PM

Locking down could IMO be optional to increase accuracy, but shouldn't be needed. Think TR MAX ability.