How a cash store can be more than just a store - Page 3

ThirdCross · 2012-03-18, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by Skitrel

Or alternatively, simply attach it to time spent playing, every 5 hours have an item drop, idle kicking will solve any form of attempt to farm those, so what do when waiting for drops?

It's pretty easy to get around idle kicking with macros.

Tatwi · 2012-03-18, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by Coreldan

It has a huge hit on immersion though to have people run around with out of place hats.

SOE: Please don't. Thanks.

Figment · 2012-03-18, 12:27 PM

We need purchasable action figures!

(Who wouldn't buy models of Magrider with exploding action and a Thunderer with sound effects?)

Goku · 2012-03-18, 12:37 PM

I have no problem with vanity items that everyone can buy through the store. However I do want stupid vanity crap rares like in TF2 (As far as I know SOE isn't planning this). I know it can work given the games art style, but it ruined the game for me in a lot of areas. I played since release and I just have seen the community go down hill being more concerned about unusuals then anything else. Do you really want to see people attempting to declare a "neutral zone" just to show off their shit? I don't. I would ruin that at every possible moment I could.

Skitrel · 2012-03-18, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by Capt Mytre

Don't know if anyone has posted this, but unless done right, it can lead to "bots" being made to specifically collect items however they may be farmed. If trading can't make it into the game, I would like a "Buy for:" ability to purchase items for friends.

I agree, though bots have patterns that are at least recognisable, the same goes for the other user that mentioned macros to get around idle kicks. Both of these things ought to be covered as part of the anti cheat, they'll be problems with cheaters with or without my suggestions, particularly macros which will get abused for norecoil.

Originally Posted by Zulthus

Skitrel, you should just leave PSU and join a debate team, since we're not good enough for you. People are giving their opinions and all you have to say is "hurr no argument, your argument sucks, fallacy, you're stupid, random crap about psychology".

This is a game forum to discuss PS2, not to write each other multi-paragraph essays describing you multiple points that are correct, in your opinion, and bullshit about your arguments always being right and relevant and you breaking ours down to "it's wrong because it's wrong". Just get over yourself. I have nothing against you, but damn, you're really getting annoying.

On topic, I agree with most, this is an MMOFPS, not a game to fucking trade boxes with each other.

So far nobody has offered suitable arguments as to why it'll be a negative, besides bots, which I've conceded, can be a problem, though that's something the anti cheat team would need to cover. I do apologise for offering counter arguments that you're unable to come back to. It still does not make the argument that you're using "It's wrong because it's wrong" right.

Originally Posted by basti

So, ive spend some time today and went through a good chunk of your posts

Its fairly obvious now that you are just a troll...

Calling someone a troll because you don't have suitable argument to their points does not make you any more right. This is just childish and highlights the lack of argument you have.

Absolutely everyone that makes a sensible argument, with good points, you'll notice I'll concede to. There is a massive difference between trolling, saying things with hope to spark an emotional reaction, and having a debate about a potential game feature.

Originally Posted by ThirdCross

It's pretty easy to get around idle kicking with macros.

Mentioned this earlier, though I'll mention it with your quote too. I agree, you're right. It's something the anti cheat team would have to cover, they better be covering this issue anyway to be fair otherwise the game will be full of norecoil.

Originally Posted by Tatwi

SOE: Please don't. Thanks.

Rofl. Agreed. As mentioned a few times in thread, it all has to obviously follow the game aesthetic.

Lokster · 2012-03-18, 02:30 PM

After reading all the pros and cons in this thread about the "rare drop" idea, I am firmly against it in PS2. Randomized drops in PS2 would just be silly (especially if they are tradable). LIke many others have said, I believe this introduction would bring farmers -- especially if drops are timer based and require no actual action.

People keep using TF2 as a reference of "awesomeness" in regard to this system. That's funny because the last ten times I've played TF2 I have been hard pressed to even find a server that is not 75-90% bots -- some server bots, but most player ran bots obviously collecting rare drops to sell or trade. Obviously an epic failure...

Skitrel · 2012-03-18, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by Lokster

After reading all the pros and cons in this thread about the "rare drop" idea, I am firmly against it in PS2. Randomized drops in PS2 would just be silly (especially if they are tradable). LIke many others have said, I believe this introduction would bring farmers -- especially if drops are timer based and require no actual action.

People keep using TF2 as a reference of "awesomeness" in regard to this system. That's funny because the last ten times I've played TF2 I have been hard pressed to even find a server that is not 75-90% bots -- some server bots, but most player ran bots obviously collecting rare drops to sell or trade. Obviously an epic failure...

Bots come under aimbotting. If bots can't be stopped in game, aimbots won't be stoppable either.

So, whether or not trading brings bots, if it were possible for it to then the game will also be rampant with aimbotters instagibbing everyone. In which case it's ruined anyway.

So bearing that in mind, logically it doesn't matter.

Lokster · 2012-03-18, 02:56 PM

Originally Posted by Skitrel

Bots come under aimbotting. If bots can't be stopped in game, aimbots won't be stoppable either.

So, whether or not trading brings bots, if it were possible for it to then the game will also be rampant with aimbotters instagibbing everyone. In which case it's ruined anyway.

So bearing that in mind, logically it doesn't matter.

Well that is about half true ... With live stat tracking which has been announced for PS2 it will be blatantly obvious someone is aimbotting -- It would be very easy to also build warnings into the code for people scoring higher than possible hit %'s and head shots. An "idle" or "path" bot would be much more difficult to detect.

Coreldan · 2012-03-18, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by Lokster

Well that is about half true ... With live stat tracking which has been announced for PS2 it will be blatantly obvious someone is aimbotting -- It would be very easy to also build warnings into the code for people scoring higher than possible hit %'s and head shots. An "idle" or "path" bot would be much more difficult to detect.

Once again this only catches people who are stupid and obvious about it.

Anyone who wants to aimbot and not be caught by it will occasionally fire a few mags at the air just to bring the %s down.

Skitrel · 2012-03-18, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by Lokster

Well that is about half true ... With live stat tracking which has been announced for PS2 it will be blatantly obvious someone is aimbotting -- It would be very easy to also build warnings into the code for people scoring higher than possible hit %'s and head shots. An "idle" or "path" bot would be much more difficult to detect.

I'm not sure about blatantly obvious. Having tried out plenty of aimbots in the past myself, I subscribe to an old BF2 hack on Artifical Aiming and spend my time over there collecting usernames of idiots that post their usernames for games attempting to meet up with other hackers to play together to report them, it's particularly prevalent in BF3 right now.

It's easy to pick out the obvious hackers, the idiots that just run a hack at it's maximum possible capability, instagibbing people in the head with every single shot and so on. It's NOT easy to pick up on people that don't do this though, aimbots can be set to aiming points, or even have random factors. To the point that someone aimbotting is no different statistically to someone who's just very good at the game, spectating you wouldn't be able to spot it either, with the use of low FOV settings a bot can simply be used to aim within a small area, even going as far as to having smooth aiming as opposed to the instant aiming people who are familiar with the obvious botters would recognise.

Using something like this for example:

To explain - the small square you see center screen, that's the only area that the aimbot has any effect, so recognising the tiny precise movements the aimbot actually affects is impossible. Combine that with setting a bot to body shots, not head shots, and you've got a nightmare problem that can't be detected or recognised via spectating without recognising the hooks before they even get in game. Turn the overlay and wallhack off and you wouldn't even be able to tell if you were stood in the same room as him.

Idle and pathing bots on the other hand are far easier, they've got patterns. For an idling and pathing bots, that's fairly easy though, just don't count anything if they've not performed any actions that earn score in the last 10 minutes. That tightens it all down to the fact that the bots have to take part in actual gameplay to earn anything, which makes writing them much, much harder. Ultimately though, absolutely all bots need to be caught by their hook method before they even get into the game, otherwise you can absolutely guarantee that the game will be overrun with aimbotters like the one I linked in video, completely unrecognisable without catching the hook.

This is the main reason actually good players get banned from servers a lot in most games, telling the difference between a botter that's just trying to look legitimate and a genuinely good player is nigh on impossible. I've played competitive CS, MW and BF3, I get banned all the time just for being a good player, which is highly frustrating. The GM team won't be able to ban people just for looking like good players otherwise they'll ban a tonne of people that aren't botters, so that leaves just catching people on hooking. Sadly =/

ArmedZealot · 2012-03-18, 03:38 PM

I'd watch out if I were you. Most people would consider that advertising. They go after that like burning witches round here. And this subject is a little off your own topic.

Otherwise I like this idea. Most games that have lived a good amount of time developed a player currency. D2 and SOJ's and whatnot. It gets players interested in the game that enjoy trade and building empires in the game.

Figment · 2012-03-18, 03:44 PM

I would not put in a player-to-player shop transfer system. If only to avoid Chinese gold farming issues and ripp-off sellers.

EDIT: not even because there are people stupid enough or lazy enough to buy from these folks (without having actually earned it or paying the price because they'll be getting their bank accounts and systems hacked, or even their in game accounts to "wire" earned stuff to other accounts). Mostly because then we won't get these stupid "BUY GOLD FORM US YES WE IZ SAFE RELIABLE SPAM WEBSITE THAT MAKES YO LIV3 3ASI!?" forum threads on anything PS related.

Soothsayer · 2012-03-18, 03:58 PM

Game aesthetic needs to be conformed to, they also need to keep EQ community people away from positions of power in Planetside (old west oshur events an example of why this is important).

No cutesey garbage, but I like the idea of trading. They'd need to a have a ton of stuff ready to go and constantly being produced to keep up with everybody having fairly unique gear though.

I'd like them to track stats on what type of gear sells in the store and focus accordingly for producing new gear.

Since I still don't see the massive f2p revenue stream that Smed is convinced exists I'd recommend SOE taking a station cash cut along the way ala Blizzard's "everybody is a gold farmer working for us" approach to Diablo III item trading.

Skitrel · 2012-03-18, 04:48 PM

Originally Posted by ArmedZealot

I'd watch out if I were you. Most people would consider that advertising. They go after that like burning witches round here. And this subject is a little off your own topic.

Otherwise I like this idea. Most games that have lived a good amount of time developed a player currency. D2 and SOJ's and whatnot. It gets players interested in the game that enjoy trade and building empires in the game.

Hmm, fair enough. Guess I'll take what comes my way then, I'm one of the few people that's willing to pay for hacks in order to help reduce the number of hackers out there though. Nobody can shoot me down for that.

I really don't see the issue with mentioning AA these days, everyone knows about them and they're the number one fuckers that show up for absolutely anything hacking. God awful scumbags.

Originally Posted by Figment

"BUY GOLD FORM US YES WE IZ SAFE RELIABLE SPAM WEBSITE THAT MAKES YO LIV3 3ASI!?

You make a good point here Figment, usually I disagree with you but you're absolutely right, there's nothing that could be done about the plethora of scam sites that would show up. The question is just whether or not that's worth the risk. Something SOE would ask themselves I presume, whether or not the extra gain they'd get is worth the negative trouble from account theft and whatnot that might happen.

Lokster · 2012-03-18, 04:55 PM

Why you turned this thread into an aimbot thread I will never know. That's all fantastically interesting and whatnot, but just because people will cheat, doesn't mean we should also open the door to rare loot farmers only playing the game to turn a profit .. which is more on point with what this thread is about.