Revisiting Artillery, because its in. - Page 3

PeteHMB · 2012-05-30, 07:26 PM

I like the way the SCUD launchers and artillery were in BF1942: Desert Combat mod. You either dead-reckoned your target from clear across the map, or did it the proper way and had a sniper spot for you. Once the sniper spotted for you, after firing your artillery it would cut to a shot of the sniper's view of your impact (if you were close) and he could either walk you in or let you walk yourself in. Readjusting took skill and at least a little precision, and the artillery vehicles themselves were too vulnerable and unwieldy to try and get close with. It took teamwork to use, teamwork to defend against any remotely coordinated attack from two or more people, and rewarded you appropriately when used correctly. Traverse/angle stops/slows prevented viable direct fire options, so you couldn't really camp right next to a building and shoot into it. I dunno, it just worked.

Rumblepit · 2012-05-30, 07:37 PM

lmao people crack me up, hes talking about the different types of os's, thats all.vs will look like the old school os ,energy based, nc will have a different version, and so will tr. same scale,damage,and different graphics , thats all.

they will be no artillery vehicles, or giant manable artillery turrets. sorry.

i would stay the os and squad spawing are going to be in the very top of the cert tree. only dedicated leaders will be able to cert it and they will more then likely have to give up something huge for it.cold down will be 3 + hrs again maybe more. maybe days if you cant afford it lol.

Immigrant · 2012-05-30, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by PeteHMB

I like the way the SCUD launchers and artillery were in BF1942: Desert Combat mod. You either dead-reckoned your target from clear across the map, or did it the proper way and had a sniper spot for you. Once the sniper spotted for you, after firing your artillery it would cut to a shot of the sniper's view of your impact (if you were close) and he could either walk you in or let you walk yourself in. Readjusting took skill and at least a little precision, and the artillery vehicles themselves were too vulnerable and unwieldy to try and get close with. It took teamwork to use, teamwork to defend against any remotely coordinated attack from two or more people, and rewarded you appropriately when used correctly. Traverse/angle stops/slows prevented viable direct fire options, so you couldn't really camp right next to a building and shoot into it. I dunno, it just worked.

I would like to see it done this ways, either with vehicles or via stationary artillery from nearby towers. It would be good if only infiltrator could cert the arty scouting ability since they usually have the best overview of the combat.

More footage BF1942 arty, this is really cool:

Originally Posted by Rumblepit

lmao people crack me up, hes talking about the different types of os's, thats all.vs will look like the old school os ,energy based, nc will have a different version, and so will tr. same scale,damage,and different graphics , thats all.

they will be no artillery vehicles, or giant manable artillery turrets. sorry.

i would stay the os and squad spawing are going to be in the very top of the cert tree. only dedicated leaders will be able to cert it and they will more then likely have to give up something huge for it.cold down will be 3 + hrs again maybe more. maybe days if you cant afford it lol.

We understood what Higs said but we are discussing other possibilities/alternatives. Orbitals are essential artillery strikes, except they are way lamer and noobish - you just point, call one in and voila! Instant arty strike... which is lame tbh.

No matter how high on the cert tree you put it, no matter how expensive it is and no matter how long cooldown is (if personal, if empire based it would be bad for already discussed set of reasons), organized outfit members would still eventually unlock it and then save up enough resources to unleash a series of orbital strikes before major attacks which the defender won't be able to prevent or counter in any way.... and that is baaaad. Arty vehicles and emplacements are both destroyable/preventable and way less open to spam abuse. Also precision and scatter of fire depends on the shooter not some random preset values.

Grognard · 2012-05-30, 08:46 PM

Originally Posted by Immigrant

Arty vehicles and emplacements are both destroyable/preventable and way less open to spam abuse. Also precision and scatter of fire depends on the shooter not some random preset values.

Dont forget to mention the counter battery fire duels, which I think would be a "blast"... Artillery is to sniping, as counter-battery is to sniper-duels.

I like the vehicle arty version too, I just dont think its comming for a while, if ever. However, if it was to get in, then I think a counter battery fire model is 100% necessary to self-govern the potential abusers.

That said, with the OS Artillery that is in "for sure", I will be happy. I just really hope that you can call for a smoke barrage variant...

kadrin · 2012-05-30, 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by Stardouser

I address that every time I talk about artillery. Lower the range so that they can't sit in their own base. And even though you didn't mention it, I will go ahead and say that instead of a 30 meter splash radius it should really be more like 5m.

As for that many people playing them, that's more people they have not capturing your bases.

I know what you guys are saying of the problems, I just don't agree that they're problems after appropriate changes are made. Having experienced spam of very similar kind in other games, I'm relatively certain I will be just fine with it if, again, the appropriate changes are made. You in fact just hit upon the solution; spawn at a different base and go after them from there. If the range of the artillery was no more than 750m/1000m, it's not like you'd have to go far.

I'm with Star on this, just scale down their range and their effect but make them manned pieces (I say mobile even).

Why on earth would anyone advocate instant off-board I-win buttons? That's all an OS is. Better to have someone crewing the artillery, and requiring someone else to be spotting his rounds, not only does it take 2 people out of the fight while they coordinate, but it takes time rather than 2 seconds of aiming the OS and receiving your free xp, then right back to shooting. Multiply that by however many people are going to have access to them, which will be a lot the longer the game is out.

Rumblepit · 2012-05-30, 10:47 PM

i want wings!!!!!!!!! lmao

Xaine · 2012-05-30, 11:03 PM

Never really got the issue with the Flail. It was boring to drive, but i never found it OP.

Get two Reavers and go destroy it. One distracts the AA, the other rapes it.

Tactics are hard? :P

SKYeXile · 2012-05-30, 11:17 PM

Originally Posted by Xaine

Never really got the issue with the Flail. It was boring to drive, but i never found it OP.

Get two Reavers and go destroy it. One distracts the AA, the other rapes it.

Tactics are hard? :P

Theoryside is the best side.

one reaver can distract the cerb field, the auto base turrets and the manned AA setup long enough for the reaver to get off..was it 2 or 3 rocket salvo's to kill one? i forget...if you managed that and get away to repair you can probably go back and kill one of the other 10 of them just before the first one you killed starts shooting again.

the only way to stop them was to burn the mods.

Warborn · 2012-05-31, 12:34 AM

What a pointless thing, conflating artillery with orbital strikes. When you say artillery people think flails or vehicles like them. That isn't what this is. This is glorified grenades or something. Items you spend money on that create a big blast someplace, one time. Who cares. It's not artillery.

Artillery is not a thing people actually find fun, and unnecessary given that liberators exist. That's why they aren't in the game, and talking about how cool it'd be to have a vehicle where you sit somewhere safe and click clouds all day isn't going to convince anyone with a brain otherwise.

Honestly, the kowtowing to the terrible ideas of the Planetside 1 developers is absolutely astounding to me. Planetside 1 already exists. We don't need the same garbage repeated.

kadrin · 2012-05-31, 12:39 AM

Originally Posted by Warborn

Artillery is not a thing people actually find fun, and unnecessary given that liberators exist. That's why they aren't in the game, and talking about how cool it'd be to have a vehicle where you sit somewhere safe and click clouds all day isn't going to convince anyone with a brain otherwise.

Please speak for yourself on this. I know a number of people who enjoy doing artillery, myself included.

SKYeXile · 2012-05-31, 12:40 AM

Originally Posted by Warborn

What a pointless thing, conflating artillery with orbital strikes. When you say artillery people think flails or vehicles like them. That isn't what this is. This is glorified grenades or something. Items you spend money on that create a big blast someplace, one time. Who cares. It's not artillery.

Artillery is not a thing people actually find fun, and unnecessary given that liberators exist. That's why they aren't in the game, and talking about how cool it'd be to have a vehicle where you sit somewhere safe and click clouds all day isn't going to convince anyone with a brain otherwise.

Honestly, the kowtowing to the terrible ideas of the Planetside 1 developers is absolutely astounding to me. Planetside 1 already exists. We don't need the same garbage repeated.

By click you mean click some tape down over your mouse button, go afk and comeback with 40 kills?

Turdicus · 2012-05-31, 12:49 AM

Higby has already made it clear that the OS will be used using resources, which then can't be spent on vehicles, special weapons, items, and who knows what else. I don't see a problem. It might be equated to off map artillery, and this is probably a good comparison, but it doesn't mean that actual artillery vehicles need to replace this feature. Artillery vehicles flail style can still be a possibility in the future, and as for the OS the restrictions of a resource cost and a cooldown timer seem to be enough to maintain a very balance-able feature of the game.

It's a sound concept that will be balanced in beta, and artillery vehicles are an entirely separate portion of the game.

Mechzz · 2012-05-31, 12:53 AM

Originally Posted by Grognard

...

4. Warhead yields:
High resource big yield for breaking a stalemate. Low yield, less resource for suppression, and thinning the herd. This is how I understand what he said, and it equates to "caliber".
...

yeah, those points are what I heard too. And number 4 is the one that worries me. Because something meant to break stalemates (how can you break a stalemate really anyway?) will be spammed after 5 minutes by the bored kiddies ("kiddies" includes many adults btw).

It had better be fecking expensive. Oh, and even if it is, it just contributes to "the rich get richer". Bummer.

Mechzz · 2012-05-31, 12:57 AM

Originally Posted by kadrin

Please speak for yourself on this. I know a number of people who enjoy doing artillery, myself included.

Kadrin, while it's good that you enjoy doing artillery, have a thought for a second about the players on the receiving end who have no direct way to fight back. And then think about them being on the receiving end of many players who enjoy doing artillery. Then think about them logging out and going to play another game.

Done badly, something like artillery can break this kind of persistent world. It's not like a map where you get spammed a couple of times during a 30minute round. It could be a continuous experience during gameplay, and while fun to play with, not fun to play against.

Turdicus · 2012-05-31, 12:59 AM

Originally Posted by Mechzz

It had better be fecking expensive. Oh, and even if it is, it just contributes to "the rich get richer". Bummer.

Not necessarily, I mean do kills generate resources? Just xp I thought