Knife = One hit kill? - Page 3

WNxThentar · 2012-06-12, 08:32 AM

Originally Posted by therandomone

See below:

I definitely see the legitimacy of some of your points (hence why I didnt think it was necessary to have them just to say, yes I agree) Though you do realize a ballistic vest designed to protect you from bullets might stop a slash (which generally isn't as lethal to begin with) but wont actually do much to stop a thrust or stab. They have specific vests to protect you from knives, which unfortunately in turn, then don't do much to protect you from bullets....its a bit of a trade off. They have began making vests with a combination of both materials to try and lessen the trade off but it become much like the saying goes "a jack of all trades is a master of none"

Umm I was in the Marines from 88-94. The vest I wore wasn't standard issue but even then the standard kevlar flak jacket provided very good knife protection. Combination armour has been around since the early 90s and while a purely bullet proof vest is manufactured to prevent punctures from a different profile then knives it isn't like it doesn't provide any protection. Good quality body armour today provide very good protection from both ballistic and stabbing. Many people think OHK with a knife is easy. Yet you'd be surprised to see how many people live after being stabbed a few dozen times.

WNxThentar · 2012-06-12, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by Traenor

Why would knife kills be overpowered? I havent played PS1, but i just would like to know why. This is not like it is CoD where everybody is doing their own thing, but a game wherein a frontline and supportive gameplay is encouraged. That will make melee a lot weaker. Also, i dont know if infils could cloak perfectly in PS1, but doing that in PS2 will have a lot of tradeoffs.

1 hit kills is overpowered. Both in PS1 and PS2 cloakers are more visible if they move fast. Even in PS1 you needed a few hits of a powered knife to kill an armoured opponent.

Sledgecrushr · 2012-06-12, 08:37 AM

Originally Posted by WNxThentar

Umm I was in the Marines from 88-94. The vest I wore wasn't standard issue but even then the standard kevlar flak jacket provided very good knife protection. Combination armour has been around since the early 90s and while a purely bullet proof vest is manufactured to prevent punctures from a different profile then knives it isn't like it doesn't provide any protection. Good quality body armour today provide very good protection from both ballistic and stabbing. Many people think OHK with a knife is easy. Yet you'd be surprised to see how many people live after being stabbed a few dozen times.

So my vote is, in a frontal attack with a knife you must hit the guy at least six times with your knife to get a kill. To get a knife kill from behind he has to be one of the lesser armored classes, be standing still and not know you are behind him at all. I also throw a vote for more melee options.

TOCS · 2012-06-12, 08:38 AM

Please make a poll on this.

Anyway, unless it's a backstab it should be 2 hits. I don't like the whole knife lunge thing, but since unequipable knifes are the future of FPS, it needs to be controlled to some degree.

Sledgecrushr · 2012-06-12, 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by TOCS

Please make a poll on this.

Anyway, unless it's a backstab it should be 2 hits. I don't like the whole knife lunge thing, but since unequipable knifes are the future of FPS, it needs to be controlled to some degree.

Unequippable knives are current fad in fps games, please brother can we look past this to the future.

Dart · 2012-06-12, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by therandomone

I mean, I did. You just didn't like it, there's a difference. Also, I think it would keep people on their toes a bit more and I don't see much wrong with that. Cloakers are not completely invisible as we've seen in the game play footage, so it would just mean you would need to pay closer attention. And we all like a sense of realism, I think we can at least agree to that, it is just too varying degrees. For instance, the idea of friendly fire is in itself a degree of realism (unless you personally dont like it, in which case you like very little realism). Though if you dont like realism (not saying thats the case,but IF) then why isn't someone like you a fan of COD since it specializes in disregarding realism. I guess some people just dance a little farther on that line then others. I still think a back knife attack has legitimacy for being a 1 hit kill (except on MAXes, of course).

I know you do. And i know gaming forums well enough to know there is nothing i can tell you that will change your mind. You're obviously not stupid and you've thought a lot about this and with every ever post you become more entrenched in your position. HOWEVER i have 9 years experience within the MMOFPS genre. The cloaking mechanism appears to be very similar to the original, the mlle you move the more visible you become and there were similar instagib features (like surge & boomers) in the original.

It is with this knowledge that i assure you, 1 hit knife kills would not be "keeping people on their toes". It'd be overpowered. It is a simple as that and has absolutely nothing to do with realism.

Dart · 2012-06-12, 08:51 AM

On a side note, i really wish guys who'd never played the original PS would trust the veterans around here when it comes to game mechanics. We've been playing PS1 for the best party of a decade now and been pouring over every scrap of information about the sequel for at least two years. Trust us! We've been there and earned the battle scars.

therandomone · 2012-06-12, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by WNxThentar

Umm I was in the Marines from 88-94. The vest I wore wasn't standard issue but even then the standard kevlar flak jacket provided very good knife protection. Combination armour has been around since the early 90s and while a purely bullet proof vest is manufactured to prevent punctures from a different profile then knives it isn't like it doesn't provide any protection. Good quality body armour today provide very good protection from both ballistic and stabbing. Many people think OHK with a knife is easy. Yet you'd be surprised to see how many people live after being stabbed a few dozen times.

I'm not saying purely bullet proof vests are like paper. I'm sorry if I gave that impression, as thats not what I was intending, because don't get me wrong they're better than nothing. Those purely designed for bullets help still, they just arent designed to handle a stab/thrust as well. Kevlar is just more meant for bullets aka something blunt, where a knife can split/slip through the fibers hence, as you know, the combination armor has the hardplates to help protect from knife attacks. But in including that it means theres less kevlar woven in because the plates are there and as I would imagine arent trying to weigh you down too hard with that and the other gear you must carry.

I will admit my knowledge of this stuff comes second hand just from my buddies in the military, so I will admit I don't have near the experience you do.

In regards to the knife attacks, that I also understand, which is why I'll admit I was a bit over-zealous with the knife especially with the front. (Is there a "knife-happy" version of "trigger-happy"?). I do think theres still a case for the rear knife attack though, as it is generally unexpected and looking at most of the armor that we can see with the footage most leave the back of the neck unprotected except for certain instances like with the Maxes. The Vanu infiltrators seem like theyre one of the few but even then much of it looks like "soft vest" armor around the back of the neck area with a few small hard plates.

Traenor · 2012-06-12, 09:04 AM

Originally Posted by Dart

On a side note, i really wish guys who'd never played the original PS would trust the veterans around here when it comes to game mechanics. We've been playing PS1 for the best party of a decade now and been pouring over every scrap of information about the sequel for at least two years. Trust us! We've been there and earned the battle scars.

Fine, i am going to trust you and agree that 1-hit kills are overpowered for the sake of discussion. Higby has said that infils will have other gameplay than as snipers, in the assassin area, as backstabbers. How do you think that can be made balanced and strong enough without 1-hit kills? (I am not trying to sound aggresive, just curious)

therandomone · 2012-06-12, 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by Dart

I know you do. And i know gaming forums well enough to know there is nothing i can tell you that will change your mind. You're obviously not stupid and you've thought a lot about this and with every ever post you become more entrenched in your position. HOWEVER i have 9 years experience within the MMOFPS genre. The cloaking mechanism appears to be very similar to the original, the mlle you move the more visible you become and there were similar instagib features (like surge & boomers) in the original.

It is with this knowledge that i assure you, 1 hit knife kills would not be "keeping people on their toes". It'd be overpowered. It is a simple as that and has absolutely nothing to do with realism.

Fair enough, and hell I'll admit you might be right. And if something like this is implemented and it turns out you were right I will personally hunt you down...and eat my words, though I can imagine if that is the case they will not taste good. And I will understand that at that point you have free range to tell me I told you so, and at that point theres nothing much I can do. While I hope it doesn't come to that, if it does you have my word I will take back my remarks/comments.
I guess I feel since you do become more visible as you move with the cloaking mechanism and I was under the pretense it only lasts for a certain short period of time (though I'm guessing it can be certed to last longer) that those mechanisms would help keep it slightly more balanced.

So at this point, can we agree to disagree and that while frustrating at times, it was generally a solid debate?

Canaris · 2012-06-12, 09:11 AM

the only thing I'd accpet a 1 hit melee kill from is a max unit to an infantry,

Max vs Max - should be a couple of hits
Max vs Inf - should be 1 hit
Inf vs Inf - should be a couple of hits
Inf vs Max - should make the Max giggle

my 3 fiddy

sylphaen · 2012-06-12, 09:15 AM

Some thoughts:
- If knife hits are OSOK right off the bat, no room is left to customize your character to be an assassin.
- I think only cloakers should have OSOK knife customizations: the other classes do not need it.
- I think OSOK knife should be limited: in PS1, it required equipping the knife (sitching weapons took 1 second) and required implant(melee booster)/stamina. In PS2, an energy system could be made required to activate melee booster and simulate cooldowns, i.e. forcing "assassin" roles and preventing "wild rampage".

To force even further choices, self-heal and self-ammoresupply should be tied to that energy system. Further customization options would be linked to that energy mechanic which would define the infiltrator class just like jumpjets define Light Assault, revives define combat medic, armor/firepower define MAX, deployables define engineers and all-around-versatility define HA.

Edit: just to clarify, yes, I am saying that only infils should have powerful melee.

Dart · 2012-06-12, 09:28 AM

Originally Posted by therandomone

Fair enough, and hell I'll admit you might be right. And if something like this is implemented and it turns out you were right I will personally hunt you down...and eat my words, though I can imagine if that is the case they will not taste good. And I will understand that at that point you have free range to tell me I told you so, and at that point theres nothing much I can do. While I hope it doesn't come to that, if it does you have my word I will take back my remarks/comments.
I guess I feel since you do become more visible as you move with the cloaking mechanism and I was under the pretense it only lasts for a certain short period of time (though I'm guessing it can be certed to last longer) that those mechanisms would help keep it slightly more balanced.

So at this point, can we agree to disagree and that while frustrating at times, it was generally a solid debate?

I'm not really one for "i told you so". Like almost everyone here i really just want to see PS2 become fun and successful. This is a good community you're joining. By and large it's a mature and knowledgeable one.

And yeah, I'm always up for a good debate.

Kilmoran · 2012-06-12, 10:12 AM

Melee Booster Cert. Depending on how that works.. i'd say that seems to be where "1 hit kills" would reside. In PS 1, it was the ability to 2 or 3 hit kill, depending on your mode (and possibly mods or bonuses) Other wise it was 3 to 5 hits without melee booster.

Kalbuth · 2012-06-12, 10:21 AM

To the people new to Planetside world, brace yourself for what you may well see. We called it "the Zerg".
It's 2 main forces clashing together in 1 area.

It's overcrowded in many parts of the area.
Like, the spawns, or the vehicle bay. People collide together trying to reach a terminal, are in queue, must wait a bit to pass a door, and there rush to the frontline. There is a hell lot of noise, everything moves around you.

In PS1, we had originally an implant that allowed to go faster (called "Surge") and a deployable which was basically a C4, called "Boomer". An invisible infiltrator would surge into ennemy spawn room, plant a boomer while passing, and detonate when outside, killing some players in spawn. He then was taking a route around, to come back, rince and repeat.
You only heard the "woosh woosh" of the active surge, the "tick" of the deploying boomer, and boom. There was too much movement around you to spot someone barely visible. Too much noise around too, until you got killd 4 times and learn it.

I can easily foresee an infiltrator lining up on vehicle bays, invisible, rushing aligned people getting their vehicles, and doing 2 or 3 1shot knife kills in a row, then evading somewhere, replenish energy, rince, repeat. When it's going to be seen as efficient, it's going to be abused. Because it's a 2000 players MMO. This is not really the stealthy assassin gameplay I'd like to see, tbh