Cross faction chat? - Page 3

Firearms · 2012-07-06, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by TAA

Did I miss anything else?

TL;DR?

MCYRook · 2012-07-06, 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by TAA

Did I miss anything else?

Meh, I guess you tried.

You didn't really respond as to why we think muting cross-faction chat is "idiotic" (my words, not Fig's), so I'll spell it out clearly:

1. If the goal, social-design-wise, is to minimize the potential for the occurrence of "bad behaviour", then it obviously isn't enough to do away with cross-faction chat only, you'd have to kill own-faction chat as well, because that's where the vast majority of crap in the chat box comes from. The cross-faction abuse is only a small part. Which you can avoid in another way than outright preventing it, because...

2. /ignore
Problem solved, that guy won't pester you again. Too much work? Well depending on how many idiots there are, you might have to put a fair few names on your ignore list, sure. But it's worth the effort, because...

3. A lot of good, positive interaction can come from cross-faction chat. In a way, it's even more valuable being cross-faction, because faction rivalry and killing each other in-game makes for a bigger threshold to overcome here in order to achieve mutual respect.
That's not even getting to that taunty banter and even trolling can be positive as well - positive in that it makes players play more rather than less. This is re: "why is trash talk bad per se?" - it isn't, it can be a big motivational factor to "show him!".

Originally Posted by TAA

What you are doing is saying - it is ok that some people be made to suffer because good can come from having bad social design in games, and besides you can just ignore anything that bothers you anyway.

We are saying that you need to consider both the pros and cons, certainly. Bill Fulton agrees with us:

Originally Posted by Bill Fulton article

As with any design, you need to be careful that you don’t lose the good while getting rid of the bad.

Fulton also concedes that WoW and FPS games have a whole different range of social difficulties. Unfortunately, he doesn't go into detail here, but it's safe to say that what is good in WoW isn't necessarily good in an FPS (which you agree with) - see the friendly fire example (which you also agree with).

Originally Posted by FastAndFree

Well here is a compromise solution (for the sake of having one. I'm all for cross-empire whispers)
Let's have an option: Ignore All Enemies. If this is really such a huge issue then perhaps have it on by default. (Maybe send the player a notification the first few times he recieves a whisper that a whisper was just blocked, so he actually knows cross-faction whispers exist).

Yeah, I wanted to suggest just that in my last post, but forgot.
Damn, Fulton digs this as well:

Originally Posted by Bill Fulton article

Provide players the option to control their social environment. For example, Xbox Live allows players to set chat to be ‘friends only’–which lets those players who don’t like the chatter to have it be muted.

Similar solution as with a language filter actually - which I also find silly, but that's just me. Global Agenda for instance has it turned on by default.

TAA · 2012-07-06, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by MCYRook

You didn't really respond as to why we think muting cross-faction chat is "idiotic" (my words, not Fig's), so I'll spell it out clearly:

1. If the goal, social-design-wise, is to minimize the potential for the occurrence of "bad behaviour", then it obviously isn't enough to do away with cross-faction chat only, you'd have to kill own-faction chat as well, because that's where the vast majority of crap in the chat box comes from. The cross-faction abuse is only a small part. Which you can avoid in another way than outright preventing it, because...

Absolutely true. Doing away with cross-faction chat would not be enough. I think it is a rather simplistic solution, but I think it is an easy one to implement and one that would yield very tangible positive results. That is a personal opinion based on playing other online games (not PS1 - I am not a PS1 veteran).

Originally Posted by MCYRook

2. /ignore
Problem solved, that guy won't pester you again. Too much work? Well depending on how many idiots there are, you might have to put a fair few names on your ignore list, sure. But it's worth the effort, because...

I think this is both true and not quite so true at the same time. Yes it is true that the one guy wont pester you again, but the culture that encouraged the creation of that behavior has not been corrected. Other idiots can and will arise, their behavior unchecked by any game design mechanism other than the ignore option at the individual user level.

If the ignore option is the only mechanism in place then I would like to see it expanded upon at the very least. Suggestions:

Every time someone sends out a message for any reason a box appears next to their name in the chat window. Click the box to add them to the ignore list.
Allow ignore lists to be shared automatically with other people. Eg. If I enable the option in my settings, I can automatically have people added to my ignore list that other people I trust or play with have also ignored (friends, family, outfit buddies, etc).
Make it so that every time someone is put on an ignore list that they get a system notification telling them how many people just added them to their ignore lists.

This would be going beyond a mere option to ignore someone. It would be making the process easy to do, and adding social reinforcement into the system (which is actually the only kind of thing I think can be effective at all). With additional measures such as these in place, every time you ignore someone you are effectively telling them: your behavior is unacceptable, and all of my friends agree with me.

Originally Posted by MCYRook

3. A lot of good, positive interaction can come from cross-faction chat. In a way, it's even more valuable being cross-faction, because faction rivalry and killing each other in-game makes for a bigger threshold to overcome here in order to achieve mutual respect.
That's not even getting to that taunty banter and even trolling can be positive as well - positive in that it makes players play more rather than less. This is re: "why is trash talk bad per se?" - it isn't, it can be a big motivational factor to "show him!".

I dont agree with this. Again this is a personal opinion. That sort of thing can be done via moderated forums. While it can be motivational to some people to have trash talk in a game, to many others it can have the exact opposite effect.

I would prefer other ways to encourage rivalries in-game. Show how many times a particular enemy has killed you without you managing to kill them. Show when another enemy gets revenge on you for killing them too many times. Show how many times they have run you over with vehicles, or compare how many times you have knifed each other. These sort of stats can be shown every time you die and tailored for each person that kills you, and they would add a lot of the motivation you seek from trash talk without the negative repercussions it can have.

Originally Posted by MCYRook

Fulton also concedes that WoW and FPS games have a whole different range of social difficulties. Unfortunately, he doesn't go into detail here, but it's save to say that what is good in WoW isn't necessarily good in an FPS (which you agree with) - see the friendly fire example (which you also agree with).

This is very very true. His main point however is that careful thought about and nurturing of a social culture or environment is an oft neglected aspect of games. MMORPGs and FPS are different beasts with their own challenges. PS2 is a hybrid between the two. I think it will have some of the worst aspect of both worlds. Either that or it will be relatively niche and languish like PS1 for a long long time.

Originally Posted by MCYRook

Similar solution as with a language filter actually - which I also find silly, but that's just me. Global Agenda for instance has it turned on by default.

Its interesting that you mention Global Agenda. That was actually the only game that I have ever stopped playing because of abuse, and yes it was from someone in my own team.

I had just started playing the game, and as I often do I was playing a medic. The match I joined had one very very angry guy trying to tell everyone what to do. I followed instructions because I like teamwork. At one capture point everyone was getting repeatedly cut down by a turret from the opposing team. I typed into team chat for someone to take down the turret, but this was promptly ignored. After watching another wave of our guys get cut down by this one turret I went over and decided to take it out myself. I killed the guy repairing it and started hacking at the thing with my knife.

That was when our vocal 'leader' started hurling abuse at me for not doing my job as a medic. This incredible non-stop avalanche of abuse went on for at least a minute or two, and in that time I simply could not find any way to mute the guy. After failing to find the mute option I decided that it just wasnt worth it. I logged off and never went back. Yes I did take the trouble to report the guy, but I still never went back. At least in a typical FPS I (personally) am able tune out any abuse or offensive racial slurs because its just in the chat window. In a game with voice enabled you cant tune it out unless you mute the person, and if you cant do it within 5 seconds of the abuse starting it is probably just easier to go have a good time somewhere else.

I consider myself to be very very good at conflict resolution. Hell I have worked as a waiter for years during college, then later as a security guard for another couple of years during my second degree. In real life there are social and legal consequences for bad behavior. It should not be acceptable in a virtual environment.

Baneblade · 2012-07-06, 10:34 AM

I'm of mixed opinions regarding cross faction chatting. In WoW at least there was a little plausible lore for why it wasn't possible, but in PS2 there is no such barrier.

I do not believe the social paradigms have any real relevance since forums/VOIP will just be used in lieu of direct ingame chat.

MCYRook · 2012-07-06, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by TAA

If the ignore option is the only mechanism in place then I would like to see it expanded upon at the very least. Suggestions:

Every time someone sends out a message for any reason a box appears next to their name in the chat window. Click the box to add them to the ignore list.
Allow ignore lists to be shared automatically with other people. Eg. If I enable the option in my settings, I can automatically have people added to my ignore list that other people I trust or play with have also ignored (friends, family, outfit buddies, etc).
Make it so that every time someone is put on an ignore list that they get a system notification telling them how many people just added them to their ignore lists.

I like the first suggestion, because it not only makes the ignore process easier and faster, but also saves you hassle when someone has a convoluted or purposely hard-to-spell name - we had that in PS1 with cheaters using names like "IIlllIllIlllIl" to make reporting their name all but impossible*.

I'm a little torn on the second - it's useful, but sometimes the person who does the ignoring does it for wrong reasons (often poutyness), so I might get people on my ignore list who don't deserve to be there at all. But I guess it's down to the player to decide if the friend whose ignore list he duplicates is one to ignore people on a whim.

I'm not fond of the third one. I believe most people who send abuse (actual abuse that's worth ignoring the guy) know full well that this is not welcome. I think it might actually incite them to send more abuse just to see what "ignore highscore" they can get.

While it can be motivational to some people to have trash talk in a game, to many others it can have the exact opposite effect.

I don't dispute that many people don't want trash talk. I just wanted to stress that it's not a universally bad thing, and can even be good. So I guess we found agreement here.

I would prefer other ways to encourage rivalries in-game. Show how many times a particular enemy has killed you without you managing to kill them. Show when another enemy gets revenge on you for killing them too many times. Show how many times they have run you over with vehicles, or compare how many times you have knifed each other.

Good suggestions. ^^

MMORPGs and FPS are different beasts with their own challenges. PS2 is a hybrid between the two. I think it will have some of the worst aspect of both worlds.

I'm afraid that may well be true.

About your GA incident: Let me first throw in that you did the right thing tactically.

He's correct that a Medic should be the last person to attempt downing a turret, but if noone else does, it's better he take care of it than nobody. Turrets must die, turrets win games in GA. It's a little beside the point, but it leads me to think that the guy was not only rude, but also wrong. He was an idiot, so whatever he said needs to be seen as just some spouting by some random idiot who thinks he knows his shit, but really doesn't. Of course, you couldn't know that.

This incredible non-stop avalanche of abuse went on for at least a minute or two, and in that time I simply could not find any way to mute the guy. After failing to find the mute option I decided that it just wasnt worth it.

Unfortunate that you didn't find the ignore function. That mutes not only text chat, but also VoIP.

What do we take from that, tho? Make ignoring easier, I guess.

* aggravated by the fact that these characters were indistinguishable with the font they used - which reminds me, I need to make a thread about that.

Wahooo · 2012-07-06, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by TAA

Forgive me if I choose not to trust your expert opinion on the matter. Instead I provide evidence in the form of a Originally Posted by Microsoft Research

Table 5
How did you respond to the bad
behavior?
Chose not to respond 27.5%
Could not respond 5.8%
Responded directly to perp 58.8%
Informed administrator 37.6%
Left the game 29.9%
paper..

Um... we can lose those 30% because it looks like there is still 130% of the people in game.

Psychologists are somewhere just above Lawyers and a bit below child molesters on my scale of people who's opinions anyone should pay attention to.

It is a friggen video game, and I would agree voice chat between factions and like there is after instances in many shooters is beyond bad and has no function other than self hating children spewing verbal turds. But I just don't see this issue with breaking of the greater social design with inclusion of private text whispers/tells.

TAA · 2012-07-06, 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by MCYRook

I like the first suggestion, because it not only makes the ignore process easier and faster, but also saves you hassle when someone has a convoluted or purposely hard-to-spell name - we had that in PS1 with cheaters using names like "IIlllIllIlllIl" to make reporting their name all but impossible*.

I'm a little torn on the second - it's useful, but sometimes the person who does the ignoring does it for wrong reasons (often poutyness), so I might get people on my ignore list who don't deserve to be there at all. But I guess it's down to the player to decide if the friend whose ignore list he duplicates is one to ignore people on a whim.

I'm not fond of the third one. I believe most people who send abuse (actual abuse that's worth ignoring the guy) know full well that this is not welcome. I think it might actually incite them to send more abuse just to see what "ignore highscore" they can get.

You know, I think this could go even further.
How its this for another couple of suggestions to add to those other three:

When someone is put on your ignore list they are also automatically prevented from joining the squad (and the voice chat channel) of any squad to which you are a leader. They are also prevented from entering any vehicle you are driving.
Orders and squad commands given by leaders who are on your ignore list do not ever show up for you in the game.
People on your ignore list are visually identifiable to you in game. For example, all their name tags might be orange.
You can set thresholds for acceptance of ignore list recommendations from friends. Eg. Someone is added to your ignore list only if 2/3/4/etc people from your selected friends or outfit list have ignored that same person.

Now we start really beginning to see how a social system can be leveraged to drive behavior. People who break social norms with unacceptable behavior would quickly begin to find their gameplay experience being affected. They would stop getting rides in vehicles, stop joining squads, and be visually identifiable so they would likely stop getting heals and repairs too. They can still play the game, but they would slowly shut themselves out from the social aspect of belonging to a team.

Edit: This thread originally started in the Discussion forum, and was subsequently moved to the New Player Questions forum. I have started a new thread with these ignore list suggestions in the Idea forum since it is spinning off from the topic a little bit.

Noxey · 2012-07-06, 06:07 PM

lol trash talk and hate tells were the backbone of dramaside.. deffo needs to be included

WarbirdTD · 2012-07-06, 09:41 PM

Sorry, but I stopped reading after "That is a personal opinion based on playing other online games (not PS1 - I am not a PS1 veteran)." I didn't stop reading specifically because you're not a PS1 veteran, but because you don't understand the social environment that exists in PS1 to begin with.... so how could you possibly be suggesting ways of creating a "more positive social environment" for Planetside 2? More positive than what? You have no baseline.

Having gotten into epic dogfights with some really good pilots before, the two of you are the only ones involved in that combat, thus forming a bond and perhaps a cross-faction friendship. Just recently, I was gunning for a tank and shot my outfit leader from Emerald that I hadn't talked to for at least 5 years, thus sparking yet another cross-faction conversation.

Please don't assume that design decisions made in other games must be implemented in this one. I would absolutely hate to lose the option of engaging in friendly banter in PS2.

TAA · 2012-07-06, 09:59 PM

Originally Posted by WarbirdTD

Please don't assume that design decisions made in other games must be implemented in this one. I would absolutely hate to lose the option of engaging in friendly banter in PS2.

You shouldnt have to. You should be able to turn that option on in the game settings. There is nothing wrong with adding choices for people.

I am also sure that you have had many positive experiences. You and probably many of the other 15k-20k people that continued to play PS1 for years on end.

Do you think that the average player that decided to stick with PS1 for so long is different than the average player that may choose to jump into a AAA FPS title on the market today?

Addendum: A note on other games that used factional warfare. Both DAoC and Warhammer Online had warfare between players as a central gameplay aspect. Neither allowed chat between the factions/realms. It worked well enough.

Wahooo · 2012-07-08, 12:34 AM

Originally Posted by TAA

Addendum: A note on other games that used factional warfare. Both DAoC and Warhammer Online had warfare between players as a central gameplay aspect. Neither allowed chat between the factions/realms. It worked well enough.

Unless they had a system of cross fractional chat that was not working and changed it this example really doesn't have any relevance.

Hate tells are fun, and i've collected quite a few. The only ones I've sent out have to do with the era of over the top hackers.

The ONLY people that have ever gotten onto my ignore list in Planetside are faction CR5's that I simply got tired of and that is only two people.

Just last night I got into some /tells with a guy I killed because I got a VERY lucky kill and most of the chat was about how the only reason I got the kill was all the friendly fire in his back. I could only laugh and acknowledge I knew I got lucky because he died so fast.

Just one example but i've had way more experiences like that than anything that would make me want to /ignore a player let alone quit the game.

Now your example from Global Agenda? Yeah my feeling on a lot of FPSs and general voice coms, along with MMO type games and their general chat functions. Both of those things FPS general voice coms and MMO type "City" or "Barrens" chat are annoying to the point of aggravation but Planetside has neither of those.
Planetside is talking about integrated voice on squads or platoons. We'll see if it works because just like Global Agenda and other FPSs with voip TS/Vent/Mummble are still more often used. And since it is limited to squads and platoons you can easily self moderate people.
As far as global chats, not sure how that is going to work into PS2 but with PS1 it wasn't until command rank 5 and you could be reported and muted by mods and trolls really don't want that. There has also been quite a few suggestions on earning and maintaining command ranks or ability to global or empire orders.

The long and the short of it, my opinion and a lot of the players I know in this game and others feel that not being able to private text chat with any player you interact with in game takes away from the game experience.

We will just have to see though. My ignore list in Global Agenda in MUCH less time in game than Planetside was MUCH MUCH bigger. It had to do with general VOIP functions and City Chat rather than actual personal interaction.

MyWounds · 2012-07-10, 04:41 PM

Normally I don't post often, but this topic seemed worth the effort.

Most people who play games like Planetside, COD, Battlefield, etc. Aren't initially playing the game for a'positive, good goody two shoes, lawful good' social interaction. (Forgive the D&D reference.) Trash talking is part of these games, and they just wouldn't be the same without them. It's also great to have friendlier conversations or banter with the enemy. Others have already stated that most hate tells are hilarious. I have to agree.

But going so far as to make this game more... friendly? This has got to be one of the most childish arguments I've ever heard. Most players are at least mature enough to have thick skin to be on the internet in the first place. I have never left a game because of trash talking, I either 1.) Replied to the trash talker in kind, or 2.) Muted them if they were overly annoying. This game is going to be either T or M rated, so if some kid's parents hear a little swearing or trash talk it's their own fault, not the kid's. After all it is a game for more mature audiences than a E rated game.

I don't know about others. But I play these games to work together with my friends and mow down the enemies that get in my way, not to have a Hello Kitty Tea Party with the enemy. Trash talking is expected, it breeds, as other have said, rivalry, competetiveness and faction loyalty.

Stncold · 2012-07-13, 11:45 AM

Absolutely need at least cross-Empire /tells back, can't have it any other way.

The Old Republic did a lot of things wrong, but one thing it did right was cross faction spatial so you could talk trash to the other faction. I wish more MMO's would do that.

AzureWatcher · 2012-07-13, 01:12 PM

I would love for cross-faction chat. Optional, of course, for those with weaker stomachs, but still there nonetheless for those of us who are into silly nonsensical banter with the enemy.

And I absolutely agree with Stncold, the cross-faction /say chat in TOR was one of its best features. Ilum and the warzones were made that much more competitive because of it.

Plus, personal rivalries are amazing to have and it's harder to maintain them without universal chat boxes.

Again, if you don't like to listen to it, then turn it off. Don't try to ruin other people's fun because you're too much of a carebear to handle it. (Directed to only those who say that it shouldn't be available in-game no matter what, not even as an option.)

vVRedOctoberVv · 2012-07-13, 01:13 PM

I don't see the problem with mocking the enemy, especially in the context of the game. Seems pretty natural to me. If somebody is particularly rude... Block them. I know, I know, nobody ever wants to use that because it's so much easier to go to an admin, forum whine, get sanctions, or remove chat altogether.

Besides, there are plenty of times people talk to each other in a non-negative way even between factions. Not being able to talk to other people does not 'promote faction loyalty' it just forces only speaking to your allies. Same people that excessively trash talk the enemy will trash talk their allies, too.

No, there's no point in removing cross-faction chat. This belongs in the game. And any game for that matter. Taking it out (like in WoW) just boils down to a developer caving to whiney people who are too lazy/stupid to use the ignore feature.

How do I know this? Because there is nothing in WoW (and especially nothing in Planetside) to prevent you from simply creating a character on the other side. Game design does not and will not promote faction loyalty. Your interactions with other people do. More to the point, people who are inclined to be "loyal" will be (I'm not a flip flopper, for instance) people who like to "drift around" will. So, it's pointless to attempt to "regulate" who people can talk to and do. But, thanks for promoting a "Big Brother" mentality! We need more of that in this country!