Feedback on SCUs for Higby

[Kail]

First, to everyone asking "why fix what's not broken" - he's just getting feedback; if you don't think there's anything wrong with the current model, that's all you need to say. No need to start trying to tell him what question he should have tweeted out today.

To answer the question:

• I like them because, like in PS1, losing them is the point at which a defender must switch to an offensive gameplay if they hope to stop the base from flipping. I think that's muddied a bit with how capture mechanics have changed, but it's still a very solid "whatever you were doing, its not working, and now you have to try something different".
• Like EvilPig had brought up, I've also been thinking that bringing down the SCU should drop the pain fields and shields on the spawn room. Taking down the SCU should be done so the attackers can remove a source of spawning, not something you do just to make all the defenders hole up in and take pot shots from.
• I'm not sure what I think about having the SCU shields drop at neutral marker, instead of triggered by gen destruction. It does sound interesting, but for me personally that's something I'd need to see / try in action to decide if it felt good or not.

Edit:

And related to SCU's, I think -all- base objectives should have feedback in the game world itself; Like base-wide flood lights that turn on when the SCU is compromised / down, spinning red lights on the building generators are in if it's generator is compromised / down, etc.

I shouldn't have to look at my minimap / map nearly as often as I do to figure what's happening where in a base.

[Crator]

Originally Posted by Assist

SCU should be tied directly to the capture mechanic imo. That's the point of them right? They're the spawn unit for whoever is defending. The only way to change that should be to actually take the base.

I'm confused now. So if the other empire takes the base then they have control of spawns. There isn't a need for a SCU at all with what you are saying there.

[Mordelicius]

It's better if they wait for new modified hex system (Rush Lanes) in place before making any SCU changes. They still don't know how the new system can affect the battle flow.

But if they really want to change the SCU, then:

1) make them captureable like a node instead of destructible/repairable.
2) add a second shield generator for the SCU.

The problem is not the SCU itself. It's the shield generator. Once it is down, it's hard to repair. If there's a second SCU shield generator, then the attacker would have to defend that too if they want the SCU to be permanently down.

One can see how effective gameplay is the double shield generator for the bay doors/gates. Why isn't the same principle applied to the SCU generator?

[ElSol]

Originally Posted by Mordelicius

But if they really want to change the SCU, then:

1) make them captureable like a node instead of destructible/repairable.
2) add a second shield generator for the SCU.

The problem is not the SCU itself. It's the shield generator. Once it is down, it's hard to repair. If there's a second SCU shield generator, then the attacker would have to defend that too if they want the SCU to be permanently down.

One can see how effective gameplay is the double shield generator for the bay doors/gates. Why isn't the same principle applied to the SCU generator?

That is exactly what I wanted to suggest. I also like the idea that the painfields and shields on the spawns drop if the SCU is down.

[basti]

SCUs need to be removed, thats the fix.

Remove them, replace them with generators powering the pain field and shields of spawn rooms.

Make Spawn tubes killable. Add tunnels as ways to get to the SCU to prevent them from being destroyed.




The problem really is that SCUs usually die after the base is already lost because of overwhelming force. The tunnels helped, as they give defenders a way to bypass the enemy vehicle spam, but they are by far not enough.


Planetside 1 worked because it was a logical line from base doors -> spawns/generators -> Base cap, at least for biolabs and interlinks.
Amp stations had the vehicle spam problem PS2 has right now, but thanks to CR5 EMPs, OSes, far less vehicles, short distances and high TTK, the problem could be dealth with.
Tech plants showed awesomly how PS2 should be: dont destroy SCU/gen/spawns and you have a hard time holding that hack. I fondly remember those maxcrashes up the stairs in order to get the base resecured, or maxcrashes down the stairs in order to kill the defenders.


So, what we needi s that linear gameplay again. A -> B -> C. Let us figure out how to get from A to B in the current situation, dont give us the option to completly bypass B and go straight for C, because that usually ends in defenders sitting at B while attackers just ignore them, causing no fight at all but instead just boredom for everyone.

[Hmr85]

Originally Posted by basti

SCUs need to be removed, thats the fix.

Remove them, replace them with generators powering the pain field and shields of spawn rooms.

Make Spawn tubes killable. Add tunnels as ways to get to the SCU to prevent them from being destroyed.




The problem really is that SCUs usually die after the base is already lost because of overwhelming force. The tunnels helped, as they give defenders a way to bypass the enemy vehicle spam, but they are by far not enough.


Planetside 1 worked because it was a logical line from base doors -> spawns/generators -> Base cap, at least for biolabs and interlinks.
Amp stations had the vehicle spam problem PS2 has right now, but thanks to CR5 EMPs, OSes, far less vehicles, short distances and high TTK, the problem could be dealth with.
Tech plants showed awesomly how PS2 should be: dont destroy SCU/gen/spawns and you have a hard time holding that hack. I fondly remember those maxcrashes up the stairs in order to get the base resecured, or maxcrashes down the stairs in order to kill the defenders.


So, what we needi s that linear gameplay again. A -> B -> C. Let us figure out how to get from A to B in the current situation, dont give us the option to completly bypass B and go straight for C, because that usually ends in defenders sitting at B while attackers just ignore them, causing no fight at all but instead just boredom for everyone.

QFT

This, so much this.

[Koadster]

They are a bit awkard in biolabs. Once the attackers get a good foothold and blow the scu. Bye bye biolab.

[Assist]

Originally Posted by Crator

I'm confused now. So if the other empire takes the base then they have control of spawns. There isn't a need for a SCU at all with what you are saying there.

Pretty much

[bpostal]

Originally Posted by basti

...So, what we need is that linear gameplay again. A -> B -> C. Let us figure out how to get from A to B in the current situation, dont give us the option to completely bypass B and go straight for C, because that usually ends in defenders sitting at B while attackers just ignore them, causing no fight at all but instead just boredom for everyone.

While it increases the ability for a fight to be seen as 'stale' or 'boring', linear or near linear progression and areas of influence that shifted combat towards predominantly vehicle based (say, a few hundred meters) outside of a base to mixed combat near the walls and inside the CY to infantry based inside the actual facility provides a much smoother flow and transition.

The flow of combat is the most jarring thing about most base fights and could stand to be improved.

[LONGFELLA KOJ]

I agree that fighting your way in and destroying the tubes was a great element to PS1. It also made for epic last stands.

I have no solution to offer here, I just wanted to say what I found very enjoyable.

On a side note, could we stop fixing/researching things that no one has mentioned and get to work on showing mines on the map? Or adding in the spitfire turret already!

[Reaver]

Personally I find them to be irrelevant at all bases except biolabs. Sunderers are always used to provide closer spawns.

[Sifer2]

I kind of liked the old system where the SCU took damage. Instead of being hacked. If they put the SCU's in very defensible rooms similar to the downstairs room the Amp Station SCU is in that could be a lot of fun to fight over. Engineers repairing, and trying to keep out enemy Heavies/AV MAX, and so on trying to kill it.

Of course before it gets to that point I agree with having to hack multiple gens to gain access. I think these should actually replace some of the current capture points in the Biolab. Might as well since I think everyone has come to realize the primary objective is killing the SCU, and any Sunderers to win the base fight.

[Ohaunlaim]

If the SCU is down and the tickets are full or going down (ie less than 50% capture), then you should still be able to spawn but with a doubled spawn time.

If the SCU is down and the enemy tickets are going up (ie more than 50% capture), then you should not be able to spawn also the spawn point shields and pain-field should be turned off.


-or-

For a more gradual change. 0-25% capture = no spawn change. 26-50% capture = doubled respawn timers. 51-75% capture = no respawning but spawn defenses remain up. 76-99% capture = no respawning and no spawn defenses either.


On a side note.

The SCU should not exist only for the attackers to be able to ensure a base capture. There should also be systems in place to ensure that a dropped SCU provides defenders a chance to make a counter attack to re-secure the base before it is captured. To this end I propose...

Dropping the SCU should slow capture times (Because: SPACE! or NANITES! or GAME LORE!). How much? Whatever is balanced. This would need to be readily displayed for all players to avoid confusion.

Bad part of this would be the TKing among the attackers that did/did not want to drop the SCU.

[Whiteagle]

Originally Posted by lsoul

Maybe i'm just not seeing it, but a notification on the map to let players know when a gen/scu is down at a base would help loads. This will give smaller outfits/squads a chance to repair them before the enemy zerg shows up and its already too late to do anything without a spawn.

Yeah, this would also stop a certian mispelled SpecterNine from farming Generator XP by just flying around to empty bases deep in enemy territory...

Originally Posted by bpostal

Also, we need gen rooms where we can do gen holds. One way in, one way out with plenty of cover. Putting them in something like where the crown's SCU used to be, but removing all windows and roof access would, IMO be ideal. Any team doing a hold can cover the stairs/doorways and fall back further into the building as needed.

As for the mechanic itself, I don't mind it in it's current iteration, they just need to be readily accessible by the defense without shelling from vehicles and if we could get them to link to the benefits provided by a base, that would be great.

This would be nice, especially in Bio Labs where it is all to easy for attackers to camp in the Shield Generator Room before rushing the SCU.

Most of the time you have no means to dig in and defend your spawn capabilities, by the time the shield is down you have half the attacking force waiting there to snag the overload.
The only place you can really do this now is at Amp Stations, but that's because it's the only one I've seen with direct access from Spawn to SCU.

Originally Posted by Kail

And related to SCU's, I think -all- base objectives should have feedback in the game world itself; Like base-wide flood lights that turn on when the SCU is compromised / down, spinning red lights on the building generators are in if it's generator is compromised / down, etc.

I shouldn't have to look at my minimap / map nearly as often as I do to figure what's happening where in a base.

Actually... this is a brilliant idea...
I mean, I'm all for more audio and visual cues for base status, but if the Forgelight Engine's biggest selling point is its ability to handle ambient lighting... why aren't their big warning lights that go off when this important thing is about to explode?

Originally Posted by Mordelicius

It's better if they wait for new modified hex system (Rush Lanes) in place before making any SCU changes. They still don't know how the new system can affect the battle flow.

Indeed, no reason to go breaking something that shouldn't be broken if there is going to be such a drastic change to the strategic meta-game.

Originally Posted by Mordelicius

But if they really want to change the SCU, then:

1) make them captureable like a node instead of destructible/repairable.
2) add a second shield generator for the SCU.

The problem is not the SCU itself. It's the shield generator. Once it is down, it's hard to repair. If there's a second SCU shield generator, then the attacker would have to defend that too if they want the SCU to be permanently down.

One can see how effective gameplay is the double shield generator for the bay doors/gates. Why isn't the same principle applied to the SCU generator?

I do like your second point, since it would by defenders time to set up a "Gen hold," but I'm not sure about the first...

I mean, technically that could allow a lone infiltrator to pretty much flip control of entire bases behind the front lines, while Infil-Sundies are already a headache to deal with.

...Is it possible to make the interactivity of the SCU dependent on context?
Then maybe we could combine Overloading and Infiltrator Hacking; you can ether rush your way to the SCU and destroy it, hoping you have enough influence and offensive momentum to just cap and continue to push, or risk defenders successfully ousting you before you have the base over 50% flipped so you can hack over the spawns which will give you effective control over the base.
The former is a far safer bet for capturing that base but will leave it vulnerable to counter attack, meaning you might end up loosing it if the enemy is already pushing back your way.
The latter provides a foothold from which to brace for a counter-push, which will be very important if we ever get true intercontinental warfare mechanics, but also gives that counter-push a far easier means to re-secure.

[Ohaunlaim]

I like the idea of bringing back the shoot-to-kill on SCUs and of multiple generators to access them.

In fact, multiple generators that must be simultaneously under-hack (ie their hacks must start within 10 seconds of each other) would be very nice as well.