Plan C: We keep both, the Lattice AND the Hex

[Fara]

imo I'm really enjoying the Lattice lines on Indar and can't wait for Esamir/Amerish to be updated. It gives a clear flow of combat.

Small scale combat can either be performed on an alternate route (as basti said there can be up to 7 paths) or when they add meaningful Empire benefits from bases Black Ops can reenter the game.

The hex system for me was far too disorganized. As an attacker the 2 main opposing zergs would bypass each other and then dissipate into any of 6 potential directions. While as a defender it was impossible to know where the main thrust would attack because after the loss of 1 outpost the enemy could go anyone of 6 possible directions.

[ringring]

No, the hex system was a flawed idea, I'm completely with Basti on that.

What the OP hasn't taken into account is that the continental lattice isn't the end point. On top of the continental fights we will get the inter-continental fights. There will be new continents and a lattice between continents.

We will also get new command and control tools although I don't know what they will be as yet (and I haven't liked the hints from Higby that much).

Once we get those all three mechanisms will work together, we will get more strategy, more 2-ways, better battles overall and most importantly a reason to play this game for the sake of the game itself rather than as a cert grind.

[Sunrock]

Those that want "spec ops" just have to find an other game to play.

[Fara]

Originally Posted by Sunrock

Those that want "spec ops" just have to find an other game to play.

Depends entirely on what your interpretation of spec ops is.

To me its preventing incursions away from the "main" front or back attacks. Its also the Generator hack and hold system of benefit denial which was one of the best features of PS1 (yes I mentioned PS1).

Not saying lets turn this game into PS1 but limited strikes behind enemy lines or last second re-secures are some of the toughest and most rewarding actions a highly organized squad can perform. I know for a fact this is something Outcasters used to do.

[ringring]

Originally Posted by Fara

Depends entirely on what your interpretation of spec ops is.

To me its preventing incursions away from the "main" front or back attacks. Its also the Generator hack and hold system of benefit denial which was one of the best features of PS1 (yes I mentioned PS1).

Not saying lets turn this game into PS1 but limited strikes behind enemy lines or last second re-secures are some of the toughest and most rewarding actions a highly organized squad can perform. I know for a fact this is something Outcasters used to do.

Absolutely

[HiroshiChugi]

Why not just do the lattice system that was originally on Indar in the PTS? It's a lattice, but it's a line of single hexes. BAM! There you go! It's a lattices, but formed by a line of single hexes on the path to that territory. Both hex system and lattic system lovers/haters are satisfied.

[psijaka]

Originally Posted by HiroshiChugi

Why not just do the lattice system that was originally on Indar in the PTS? It's a lattice, but it's a line of single hexes. BAM! There you go! It's a lattices, but formed by a line of single hexes on the path to that territory. Both hex system and lattic system lovers/haters are satisfied.

Not as simple as that unfortunately. The PTS "restricted HEX" system was nothing less than a lattice in all but name, and the lattice detractors mostly complain about the lack of strategic options (read ghost capping options) available compared with the old hex system.

[GraniteRok]

I don't mind the hex system or the lattice system. The thing I see is that Indar is slowly evolving to facility (hex) size areas similar to Esamir and Amerish. With those continents, you don't need a lattice system, the natural fight progression to the next area is easily discernable. Indar, on the other hand, had and still has way to many small hexed facilities. If these were even further resized and reduced in number then a lattice system isn't needed. I like the option of the hex system in that it makes the opponent wonder where will they hit next (to a degree) and possibly guess wrong or split their forces while still allowing for the larger fights. The lattice negates all of that. Yes, it's big fights but there's always a wanted element of tactics.

[Rstormrider]

my typical day with the hex system before i joined an outfit.

i log in to PS2 eager and anxious to get to fighting. the other 2 continents hadnt been released yet at this point. it was just indarside all day everyday! so i open the map once im in the warpgate so i can plan on where to go. to my dismay i find myself wondering as i stared at the mess of hexes "where the hell is the goddamn frontline?" so i wander to the nearest hotspot and its just a suicide mission for me to undertake. alright thats cool, we lose this base we'll regroup at the next one.

next base, where was everybody? oh, thats right they all dispersed. that biolab has a huge farm, let me go check it out. so i camp the biolab for an hour or 2, get bored and leave. where was the next fight? same place as the past several days. the crown or at zurvan. i suppose these were frontlines, but not what i imagined.

my take on a frontline is the area of serious engagement where both forces are going head to head pushing and pulling for territory through constant battle. example, we push Ti Alloys from Crossroads. something like that, but in a different place like mao or dahaka. places i have yet to see get some kind of action. places that would for months never see any kind of heated war or a big battle. it was all just a ghost capper's haven or a footnote when a zerg steamrolls it against 5 defenders.

so, this continued until i was about ready to just quit on this game. no frontline, no consistent battles, no organization in an empire's movement that i could see. i joined an outfit and the game became easily 10 times better, but thats another story for another day. it was the same thing though, instead of being alone i was with a good group of killers.

so no, take your hex system and let it die. let it die a slow agonizing death just like the ranks of my outfit continued to dwindle. we went from being able to field 1.5-2 squads consistently to run ops down to maybe 6 to 7 guys on average. it even got so bad we were down to 3 guys on. nobody liked the clusterfuck that was the hex system due to its inconsistency and the facilitation of whack-a-mole gameplay. we'd set up ambushes for enemy armor pushes and just watch them all in frustration simply go around our base to take everything else. or our zerg which we were spearheading into enemy contested grounds would leave us to die alone so they could circumvent their zerg. we'd also ride the zerg tide and found ourselves firing upon shield doors of the spawn shacks. so what gives? where was the war at? sure as hell not on ps2.

[Dougnifico]

OK, I'm a PS1 vet, I was not a Hex-hater during beta or launch, I often support new ideas much more than other old timers, but I have to say that the Hex had it's shot... and it failed. I came in with the attitude of, "Let's give it a shot." When that didn't work I said. "Let's see how they can improve the hex." I gave time to the hex system and stood by patiently. I will say now, the hex should die. The only purpose it should serve is as background territories like it currently does on Indar (looks good to have territory control).

Like I said, it was tried, I gave it time and faith, and it failed where the new lattice has succeeded. Let the hex die.

[Sunrock]

Originally Posted by Fara

Not saying lets turn this game into PS1 but limited strikes behind enemy lines or last second re-secures are some of the toughest and most rewarding actions a highly organized squad can perform. I know for a fact this is something Outcasters used to do.

We still do that in PS2 too. But that is not what people have defined "spec ops" in this thread.

[Calista]

Originally Posted by ringring

What the OP hasn't taken into account is that the continental lattice isn't the end point. On top of the continental fights we will get the inter-continental fights. There will be new continents and a lattice between continents.

Has it been mentioned if the warpgates will be functional "bases" when/if inter-continental lattice goes live? At minimum we need one on each home cont in lieu of sanctuaries for sure but I was curious about the need for each warpgate to be as it is now going forward.

[TheDrone]

Originally Posted by ShadoViper

Honestly, I can see the value in keeping both. But I don't think its worth the time of the developers to balance both.

Right now, I think it's best they pick 1 system and completely drop the other until the current system is as close to perfection as possible. Then evaluate and possibly incorporate the hex (or lattice) system back in.

I just don't see the value in having two systems being worked on, Dividing the team between them and balacing around them when neither is really in a "great" state.

So, i think it would be interesting for both, but It feels like a headache, and I would rather them just soley focus on one.

You can see the value of diversity in literally hundreds of games which took the effort of trying to cater to more than one kind of player.

Just focusing on one holds risks and simply isn't necessary. As far as I understand the Lattice needs much less work than the Hex. Some consider the Lattice to be virtually ready, as a concept.

There are more advantages than disadvantages.

Originally Posted by Kerrec

There are a lot of people in this forum that have the creativity to come up with a system that puts value and incentive into different locations and would make EVERY hex/location/lattice link worth fighting for. Let alone people who are paid by SOE to do the same.

Just because you don't want to try to imagine a system that makes every loss of territory a true loss, or every gain of territory a true victory with tangible benefits, doesn't mean the notion is not worth pursuing.

You make some very good points.

Originally Posted by TheAadvark

All I can say is that under the Lattice system we finally have fights that live upto what was the original ambition of this game, which is all out total war.

Minor point of order. What we have now, in either system, doesn't have anything to do with war. Not even remotely.

It's just a collection of battles.

Just so you know.

Originally Posted by psijaka

^ THIS. The lattice is the future and this is where the devs should maximise their effort.

And we already have both systems, and people are voting with their feet; I often get logged on to Esamir after previously fighting on Indar, and there's usually quite a large queue waiting to warp to Indar; more so than pre lattice.

The future for who? There's this assumption that everyone should have the exact same idea as to how the game should be played. PS2 would be just about the only game where this is true.

People currently can't vote. I know literally zero Hexers who condone the current Hex. Therefore it is an inherently unfair comparison.

That you do not know this is very telling.

Originally Posted by Fara

imo I'm really enjoying the Lattice lines on Indar and can't wait for Esamir/Amerish to be updated. It gives a clear flow of combat.

Small scale combat can either be performed on an alternate route (as basti said there can be up to 7 paths) or when they add meaningful Empire benefits from bases Black Ops can reenter the game.

The hex system for me was far too disorganized. As an attacker the 2 main opposing zergs would bypass each other and then dissipate into any of 6 potential directions. While as a defender it was impossible to know where the main thrust would attack because after the loss of 1 outpost the enemy could go anyone of 6 possible directions.

The Hex is too disorganized for you.

Also, you're assuming it can't be improved. Perhaps not for your play-style, but your play-style isn't the only one out there.

Originally Posted by ringring

No, the hex system was a flawed idea, I'm completely with Basti on that.

What the OP hasn't taken into account is that the continental lattice isn't the end point. On top of the continental fights we will get the inter-continental fights. There will be new continents and a lattice between continents.

We will also get new command and control tools although I don't know what they will be as yet (and I haven't liked the hints from Higby that much).

Once we get those all three mechanisms will work together, we will get more strategy, more 2-ways, better battles overall and most importantly a reason to play this game for the sake of the game itself rather than as a cert grind.

What you don't take into account is that you act as if everyone has the same wishes for the game. PS2 would be the first game ever that has a hive-mind community. Since PS2 has a profit-motive it might be nice if it could make more profit. Enough to hire enough devs to see your vision come to fruition.

Is it that hard to understand that different play-styles could be equally valid? Or are you saying that everyone should be violently forced to have the same favorite color?

Originally Posted by Sunrock

Those that want "spec ops" just have to find an other game to play.

I find this a very dangerous reasoning. Will you force everyone to leave who doesn't share your exact, pinpoint vision of the game and doesn't share your exact preferences in terms of play-style?

(the answer is "Yes, of course")

Originally Posted by Fara

Depends entirely on what your interpretation of spec ops is.

To me its preventing incursions away from the "main" front or back attacks. Its also the Generator hack and hold system of benefit denial which was one of the best features of PS1 (yes I mentioned PS1).

Not saying lets turn this game into PS1 but limited strikes behind enemy lines or last second re-secures are some of the toughest and most rewarding actions a highly organized squad can perform. I know for a fact this is something Outcasters used to do.

Some very good point.

Originally Posted by Dougnifico

OK, I'm a PS1 vet, I was not a Hex-hater during beta or launch, I often support new ideas much more than other old timers, but I have to say that the Hex had it's shot... and it failed. I came in with the attitude of, "Let's give it a shot." When that didn't work I said. "Let's see how they can improve the hex." I gave time to the hex system and stood by patiently. I will say now, the hex should die. The only purpose it should serve is as background territories like it currently does on Indar (looks good to have territory control).

Like I said, it was tried, I gave it time and faith, and it failed where the new lattice has succeeded. Let the hex die.

Many feel the Hex was insufficiently developed. If you cared you could easily come up with a dozen changes that would improve the Hex.

Frankly, I'm inclined to think that there isn't a power in the verse that could make you do that.

[Rstormrider]

the best fix to the hex is simple. ready?

CHANGE IT INTO LATTICE. thanks!

[NewSith]

Originally Posted by Rstormrider

the best fix to the hex is simple. ready?

CHANGE IT INTO LATTICE. thanks!

Troll.