Infinite revive isn't balanced for zerg/large scale play - Page 3

Sledgecrushr · 2013-07-28, 11:59 AM

I like the idea that sunder respawns need to be longer. This will definitely slow attackers down a bit. But if you are trying to make defense a little easier then medic rezzes should stay the same. I mean how are you supposed to hold a line when you gimp medic rezzes.

PredatorFour · 2013-07-28, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by War Barney

1. Make respawn time on a sunderer twice as long if not more, this way defender can respawn quicker so have a chance to overwhelm bad attackers.

2. Limit the number of revives by making it something you have to spend resources to buy and are limited in how many you can carry at once.

Come to think of it , all this furore about resources and costs of items would be solved by simply having an inventory system. So you wouldn't have to worry about buying stuff (which is quite a complicated system) but simply only be able to carry so much because of space restrictions.

To me an inventory would be a far simpler way of carrying items/balancing what items classes can have, to the current resource system there is now.

Calista · 2013-07-28, 12:33 PM

Sure... just say a medic can't carry a gun for example. That would really cause squads to limit medics and/or engys but this conflicts with the overarching problem of the business model. They do not want to limit inventory items too much because it limits monetization.

Aren't they reworking Medic class this next update pass? I seem to recall it was medic or cloaker but not sure. Either way it is a good time to start discussing changes to medic.

Ruffdog · 2013-07-28, 12:56 PM

They are reworking resources as well. Perhaps they will look at a revive costing a resource like a grenade will. This would satisfy me more than a fixed inventory of revives.

Ghoest9 · 2013-07-28, 01:09 PM

Infinite revive help the game far more in terms of playability than it hurts the game in terms of conceptual strategy.

KesTro · 2013-07-28, 01:17 PM

I think it was briefly touched up upon but what about if the med gun and engi tool had an ammo counter like any other gun? I don't see this one doing much at all unless the ammo pool was very low in which case I wouldn't like it too much. :F

Just throwing around ideas at this point.

As far as the combat ability of the medic. I think they're fine as is. After all they're 'combat' medics. Their healing aura works a lot how the heavy resist shield works only to a lesser degree since it doesn't effect their shields as well. It is mitigating damage though.

Now if the medic had grenade launchers and RPG's than we could talk about OP haha.

Rolfski · 2013-07-28, 01:55 PM

Infinite revives promotes people playing together and sticking as a team. Limiting it would definitely hurt smaller teams (that need to rely on team play) against zergs.

I also don't see any reason to give medics a nerf, give them a worse gun or any other means to take the fun out of this class. If there's anything this game does right, it has to be class balance.

Sure, medics get a lot of points and a decent gun but so does the engineer (carbine class is not per se "worse" compared to AR class) and having a disproportionate amount of medics in a team means you're missing out on fire power (Max, HA, Engineer with turret) or other special fighting capabilities abilities (LA, Infiltrator).

In BF3, the medic was OP. Not in this game imo.

War Barney · 2013-07-28, 04:49 PM

Originally Posted by KesTro

I think it was briefly touched up upon but what about if the med gun and engi tool had an ammo counter like any other gun? I don't see this one doing much at all unless the ammo pool was very low in which case I wouldn't like it too much. :F

Just throwing around ideas at this point.

As far as the combat ability of the medic. I think they're fine as is. After all they're 'combat' medics. Their healing aura works a lot how the heavy resist shield works only to a lesser degree since it doesn't effect their shields as well. It is mitigating damage though.

Now if the medic had grenade launchers and RPG's than we could talk about OP haha.

They have the ability to heal and revive people though and are the second strongest class in the game thanks to their self heal and having access to such potent guns. I'd say this makes them OP as while they don't have more dps potential than other classes and they are only the second most survivable class they also have great support skills so they have everything. Its not wonder theres always a TON of medics in platoons, why wouldn't people play a medic when they are so awesome right now?

moosepoop · 2013-07-28, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by Figment

Funny, when I said this during Tech Test, people went "but infinite revive helps small groups more!", even if it clearly doesn't since a big group has more medics, thus more chance that they can keep reviving infinitely...

what allows smaller groups of players to defend against larger groups is chokepoints.

in ps1 it took about 30 seconds to fully heal up, and the healing gun took ammo

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Infinite revives promotes people playing together and sticking as a team. Limiting it would definitely hurt smaller teams (that need to rely on team play) against zergs.

In BF3, the medic was OP. Not in this game imo.

infinite revives promotes suicidal behavior, because there is no consequence. as a medic I routinely revive entire squads within seconds.

there is only one thing that effects tactics and teamplay, that's the downtime/respawn time. counterstrike is ridiculously twitchy and fast, but because of the long respawn time its one of the most tactical shooters.

BF3 had fast instant revives to increase the flow of combat and make the game seem like there are more people fighting. planetside 2 doesn't need that, and the healing and respawn time should reflect that.

Stardouser · 2013-07-28, 05:23 PM

There are a few people claiming infinite revives help smaller groups but I think the other side has clearly demonstrated it helps the larger groups. There are just too many situational ways you can describe zergs taking ZERO losses against smaller groups, and smaller groups unable to stop and revive because the larger opposition just doesn't stop coming. Defensively, why would you revive, anyway? You have an indestructible respawn base. As smaller-force attackers, you have a sunderer, and if you don't, why should revive be so powerful that smaller-force attackers can stay alive?

I see it ALL the time. 30 guys hole up in a capture point room and EVEN when their sunderer is blown away, 10 guys with the benefit of their FIXED BASE respawn can't get them out due to revives (edit: I don't mean to imply that 10 guys should have a great chance of wiping them out, but after 10 minutes cap time, all 30 are still alive without respawning. This is what "no losses" means). How do you argue against that point?

Revives have always been like this, but I think it's only been recently that the majority of outfits/zergs figured out that it was this easy.

Mordelicius · 2013-07-28, 06:02 PM

Just implement:

Progressive Revive Timer

first revive: 10 seconds to revive
second revive: 20 seconds to revive
third revive: 30 seconds to revive

- Dying nonstop will lockup the medics (for example, a 4th revive will lock them up for 40 seconds. The likelihood is that the medic will just leave and the dead will simply have to respawn).
- Make the timer reset in 30 minutes.
- Respawning resets the timer.

Ruffdog · 2013-07-28, 06:16 PM

Following this thinking then and making the revive gun use ammo:

You merely need an engineer to top up your med guns. Zergs have more engineers than smaller forces. Boom, extra imbalance for smaller squads.

And the day 10 defenders can kill off 30 attackers, I want destructable spawn tubes.

Stardouser · 2013-07-28, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by Ruffdog

Following this thinking then and making the revive gun use ammo:

You merely need an engineer to top up your med guns. Zergs have more engineers than smaller forces. Boom, extra imbalance for smaller squads.

And the day 10 defenders can kill off 30 attackers, I want destructable spawn tubes.

Not to beat a dead horse, but it's not about "killing off" the enemy when outnumbered 30-10, but about at least being able to force a few of them to respawn as the battle goes on. Especially MAXes so that the zerg actually risks resources.

On the point of destructible spawn tubes, I am all for the ability to reduce or even stop defensive spawns!

Calista · 2013-07-28, 07:53 PM

Well you bring up a point in that in PS1 you couldn't pull maxes from AMS, they had to come from an tower or a nearby base. I believe you could pull one from a hacked terminal within the base though but the point is you had to work to get to that point without maxes, requiring a pop advantage to crack into a base and any decent group of players would blow the terms once a base had been compromised. I think SOE just wants a fast paced game in PS2 to the point of numbers being the only strategy and that is a shame but maybe things get improved over time.

BlaxicanX · 2013-07-28, 10:45 PM

Just throw a revival limit in there, like the limit in Gears of War (in certain game modes, you can get revived up to three times per life iirc, after the third revive, being downed results in permanent death until respawn).

Simple. Easy. Clean.

If you as a player die 3 times in a single life, you deserve to respawn. lol.

Beyond that though, this game's TTK is too low to make limited revives or limited healing from the gun work.