Breaking Lattice - Page 3

EVILPIG · 2013-08-16, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by fierce deity

What if when a faction gets cut off from the warpgate the cut off territory reverts to using the hex system?

That's an excellent suggestion.

Varsam · 2013-08-16, 02:13 PM

If the game were optimized a little better to afford more fps during large fights, most people would have no problem with lattice.

Originally Posted by Livefire

I think they should combine both and have a hybrid which would be a clear improvement from the old PS1 version we have now. Let you cap anything via adjacency but not get resources unless you are connected to the lattice. And resources should be made way more important and actually be the purpose of the war as the devs are currently working on.

Twitter spam this to Higgles immediately, please. While you're at it, ask him for a job.

Rumblepit · 2013-08-16, 03:10 PM

I dont get it. I have heard people cry that lattice system will make it hard for smaller units to be effective.Now im hearing people cry that it restricts large outfits and creates bottle necks ,and limits tactics.

With the current state of the lattice system both small units and large units can be effective across the map. People are saying that this is not a good thing, and it should be reverted or removed.

Tell me this. What tactics are you guys planing to use on all these empty bases?Dont tell me your planning on attacking defended bases when you have the option to just go around.Because if people actually attacked defended bases while the hex system was implemented we would not have lattice system today.

There are so many ways for outfits and squads of all sizes to be tactically effective with the current lattice system.It creates large and small fights 24 hrs a day.They gave us the chance to make the hex system work,7 months...
People did nothing but backcap and avoid fights.Thats all,there was nothing, the most action you would see was driving past a enemy platoon on your way to the next backcap.

What makes any of you think this will change now?And why in gods name would you want to spend your days chasing down backcappers and ghost hacks?

I think you guys need to go back to the drawing board, come up with some new tactics,and enjoy the great fights we have everyday all day.

Lattice has done more for this game than any other update we have had to date.

Kerrec · 2013-08-16, 03:45 PM

As pointless as this is probably going to be, I'll give a shot at explaining why I don't like Lattice so much. However, before I begin, let me point out some fallacies:

Backcpas and Ghostcaps: At launch, this was impossible with Hex. We had a dynamic capture timer that was a function of quantity of adjacent friendly territories and quantity of allies in proximity of capture points. This dynamic was vilified by PS1 veterans because they wanted PS2 to be like PS1, which meant looking at a map and knowing EXACTLY how much time a base would take before it was lost.

I guess these people wanted to time their attacks to defend a base at the last possible second to get that epic "just in time" feeling. As far as I was concerned, if a base was being attacked, getting there ASAP was the order of the day, not waiting until the last minute.

That being said, the PS1 mechanic demands won out and 2 things happened: The friendly territory adjacency effect was removed and the requirement to have allies near capture points were removed. That broke Hex badly, introducing "ghostcaps", IE: flipping a point and leaving, letting the base flip on its own. BAD.

It also encouraged back-capping because every base type captures at the same speed. Have 48 people flip a base at the same time as ONE enemy flipped a base behind you, and both bases get captured in the same amount of time meaning 1 lone wolf = an infinitely large force one hex over. In other words, you could cap one base with 12 people or cap 12 bases with 12 people in the same amount of time. Well, duh? What are you going to do? Breaking Hex this way was DUMB.

With the original Hex with adjacency effect, an enemy backcapping would have very little adjacency and flipping a base would take a LONG TIME. So it was possible to push the front line forwards with superior forces and once all adjacency was removed, then go back, flip the attempted backcap which took way too long to be successful, and voila! Your front line moved forward and the attempted backcapping base was no longer in danger.

So don't come to these forums and say that we had 6 months of Hex fixes to try and get it working because we did NOT. We got 6 months of Hex wrecking and no fixes that made any sense.

That being said, Lattice fixed Ghostcapping and Backcapping? NOPE. So overall, saying that is a stupid argument. You can still flip a point and walk away, letting a base continue to flip on its own. IE: ghostcapping. You can also backcap just fine. In fact, in Lattice, it is WORSE. You absolutely MUST have someone sit on the base while everyone else goes and attacks the next base in the line. Otherwise, some lonewolf will flip the point behind your force and prevent you from flipping any points at the next base. With large zergs, this is not so much an issue as there will always be someone spawning at the base left behind. For smaller "squad vs. squad" fights, having to travel all the way back to the base you already secured to flip a ghostcap so you can then return to the next base in the line and hope to flip it before some retard cloaker or lone wolf flips the base behind you again is nothing but aggravation. At least with hex, if someone was backcapping, you could keep your forward momentum and actually flip a point.

Anyway, I've already written too much and have still to get to what I really want to say. Which is,

With Lattice, numbers rule, period. If you are facing 2:1 odds (66% enemy) or worse, it's a matter of time before you start being pushed back. Nothing will stop their momentum other than gaining reinforcement to even things out. Once you start to get near 2:1 odds (55%+) then things will change in your favor. And there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that you can do.

With the original Hex, you could force a superior force to split up by attacking adjacent hexes. If they refused to budge, you just went around them, which is what tended to happen. Not the fault of the numericaly inferior attacking force. Completely the fault of the numerically superior defending force that didn't want to do anything other than sit on some particularly defensible position. A numericaly superior defending force that spread out didn't have problems losing territory. And the closer they came to warpgating their enemies, the larger the battles became.

Now that is gone. I look at the map. If we are facing 1:2 odds or worse, I know there's no point defending a base. I look for places to farm and retreat. If I am with my outfit, we make our fun by seeing how long we can last where we choose to stand. But that is poor gameplay at a metagame scale.

PS2 gameplay with Lattice = 1.5:1 odds or better, you make progress. 1:1.5 odds or worse, you lose progress.

There's just nothing more than that to PS2 lattice.

EVILPIG · 2013-08-16, 04:04 PM

Well said Kerrec. Difficult to get anything through to those who are simply here to whine. Hell, some don't even know the difference between strategy and tactics. I was an opponent of Lattice primarily because of the effect on smaller units. Now they are drowning in the mix or have to choose an empty continent just to make progress. Too few will even get what you said about larger forces letting smaller forces ghost around them. Most larger units in the game choose to clump together and move as one mass, even if they are 10:1 against the enemy. We have an entire division that was dedicated to chasing down the backcaps to keep the frontline secure and focused.

Rumblepit · 2013-08-16, 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by EVILPIG

Well said Kerrec. Difficult to get anything through to those who are simply here to whine. Hell, some don't even know the difference between strategy and tactics. I was an opponent of Lattice primarily because of the effect on smaller units. Now they are drowning in the mix or have to choose an empty continent just to make progress. Too few will even get what you said about larger forces letting smaller forces ghost around them. Most larger units in the game choose to clump together and move as one mass, even if they are 10:1 against the enemy. We have an entire division that was dedicated to chasing down the backcaps to keep the frontline secure and focused.

???? lol What do you know about smaller units and how they work? You dont even play the game.I am in a smaller outfit.We dont run around with 300 guys,we run with 2 maybe 3 squads on op nights. We get shiit done ,and enjoy doing it. If you played the game more often then you would get to see first hand what a smaller unit like ours dose to a zergfit like yours.

You should stick to what you know, and its not smaller outfits.Do you think outfits like Mercs,OP4,TXR,FC,TPLR,BAID,Recusion,82nd, see a zergfit like yours and think we better look for a smaller fight???? We enjoy taking bases away from outfits like yours. We you use tactics , timing ,and skill to break a larger force.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeMEEbIAi6w

These outfits do shittt like this on a daily bases now ,and its because of the lattice system.Before you would hardly ever to find any fights likes this.

EVILPIG · 2013-08-16, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by Rumblepit

???? lol What do you know about smaller units and how they work? You dont even play the game.I am in a smaller outfit.We dont run around with 300 guys,we run with 2 maybe 3 squads on op nights. We get shiit done ,and enjoy doing it. If you played the game more often then you would get to see first hand what a smaller unit like ours dose to a zergfit like yours.

You should stick to what you know, and its not smaller outfits.Do you think outfits like Mercs,OP4,TXR,FC,TPLR,BAID,Recusion,82nd, see a zergfit like yours and think we better look for a smaller fight???? We enjoy taking bases away from outfits like yours. We you use tactics , timing ,and skill to break a larger force.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeMEEbIAi6w

These outfits do shittt like this on a daily bases now ,and its because of the lattice system.Before you would hardly ever to find any fights likes this.

As sad as it is, your ignorance is amusing. You should really stop making generalized assumptions about players. I've seen far too many "everyone believes this" type of posts from you. As for me, you know nothing of me, as you've proven time and again. Since PS1 I have played many characters across servers and factions and continue to do so to this day. I am in 4 of the outfits you mention, amongst my 9 active characters, and have much experience playing with outfits of all sizes. My opinions of the game have always been from the perspective of what is best for the playerbase in general, and that is usually contrary to what may be best for a large outfit. Speaking of which, you are equally ignorant of how the 666 operates, so I encourage you to join or watch some of the numerous videos online that will show you. I have to ask your age, because I can only imagine you're an angry 12 year old from your posts. If we hurt you, I apologize, on a human level, but our intention is to win, not step on your soul.

Wahooo · 2013-08-16, 06:59 PM

What a distorted view of the original hex system.

What PS1 vets wanted was to know if it was worth responding to in numbers or just a few people. What we had with the original hex was a bunch of 'shits on fire' notifications while we were in a good fight. leaving the good fight and no knowing if we were responding to a couple newbs or a platoon. More often than not it was just a few people. All this did was keep us from being able to have actual fights and IF you wanted to be a responder you felt like all you were doing was playing whack-a-mole. So what happened? Apathy to respond to anything and ghost capping took over.

The HEX system got revisions for 6 months because it was broken and not working. Whether you think the changes broke it more or not is irrelevant because it simply didn't work right from the start.

Rumblepit · 2013-08-16, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by EVILPIG

As sad as it is, your ignorance is amusing. You should really stop making generalized assumptions about players. I've seen far too many "everyone believes this" type of posts from you. As for me, you know nothing of me, as you've proven time and again. Since PS1 I have played many characters across servers and factions and continue to do so to this day. I am in 4 of the outfits you mention, amongst my 9 active characters, and have much experience playing with outfits of all sizes. My opinions of the game have always been from the perspective of what is best for the playerbase in general, and that is usually contrary to what may be best for a large outfit. Speaking of which, you are equally ignorant of how the 666 operates, so I encourage you to join or watch some of the numerous videos online that will show you. I have to ask your age, because I can only imagine you're an angry 12 year old from your posts. If we hurt you, I apologize, on a human level, but our intention is to win, not step on your soul.

Your in 4 of the outfits mentioned? And you think that bringing back a system that we tested extensively for 7 months is in the best interest of the player base?Hex system failed to provide anything good for this game. You dont speak for me on this one.

You should give the lattice time to work ,and be fully implement before you decide that its in the best interest of everyone to change it.Like I mentioned before, when they implement continental lattice, and home continents most of the fights we see will be 2 way fights. This means each faction will have 17% more options when it comes to lanes and lattice.

We dont know how ,or if this system will be viable for combat until its fully implemented ,and tested.We need to wait for continental lattice before we can pass judgment. And even if the lattice system dosnt pan out I would never suggest going back to the hex system.

Baneblade · 2013-08-16, 08:33 PM

What I want to know is, why are you following the lattice in such a way that it turns you from being Robert E Lee and instead makes you Ulysses S Grant?

I mostly ignore the lattice, but then capturing bases is not my first priority, stopping the enemy from capturing bases is.

Kerrec · 2013-08-17, 12:36 AM

Originally Posted by Rumblepit

You should stick to what you know, and its not smaller outfits.Do you think outfits like Mercs,OP4,TXR,FC,TPLR,BAID,Recusion,82nd, see a zergfit like yours and think we better look for a smaller fight???? We enjoy taking bases away from outfits like yours. We you use tactics , timing ,and skill to break a larger force.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeMEEbIAi6w.

I realize this is some kind of personal vendetta you have that I am not a part of, but I find it really sad that you linked that video and made those claims.

I play with a small outfit that runs 2-3 squads on op nights as well. When we roll against pubbies, we'll do very well, often holding back or breaking 2:1 odds. However, we know full well that is simply because they are unorganized. When we fight equally good or better outfits, the golden rule holds: 55%+ population grants you momentum and 45%- population means you are constantly falling back.

As for the video: A tech plant alert will generate that kind of fight on Hex or Lattice. People have a REASON to go there. That video means absolutely nothing in terms of the argument of Hex vs. Lattice.

Anyway, in your video, you didn't break a superior force. You broke an equal one. That made a lot of tactical mistakes, IMO.

Rumblepit · 2013-08-17, 01:38 AM

Originally Posted by Kerrec

I realize this is some kind of personal vendetta you have that I am not a part of, but I find it really sad that you linked that video and made those claims.

I play with a small outfit that runs 2-3 squads on op nights as well. When we roll against pubbies, we'll do very well, often holding back or breaking 2:1 odds. However, we know full well that is simply because they are unorganized. When we fight equally good or better outfits, the golden rule holds: 55%+ population grants you momentum and 45%- population means you are constantly falling back.

As for the video: A tech plant alert will generate that kind of fight on Hex or Lattice. People have a REASON to go there. That video means absolutely nothing in terms of the argument of Hex vs. Lattice.

Anyway, in your video, you didn't break a superior force. You broke an equal one. That made a lot of tactical mistakes, IMO.

LOL I guess you didnt see the tags on the guys rushing that point when there was 30 secs left. There was even pop in that hex yes your right, we had armor and air,and ALL THE VS WERE INSIDE THAT BUILDING,and we pushed in with 3 squads, 36 guys and had a few pubs following after it was broke.That base was taken with low numbers.

You should try to make a account on connery and tell me its easy to take a base away from any of theses outfits. THIS AINT WATERSON KIDO. Some of the best outfits in this game are on this server.

It was a very rare thing to have a fights like that during the hex system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ7zSBVGox4

We roll like this during every op.You want to criticize our outfit?Watch the video ,and if you want to learn how to play this game feel free to make a account on connery and we will show you how its done.

Sunrock · 2013-08-17, 03:06 AM

The hex system was a very good idea. However the server population could not sustain a high enough population, especially during off hours, for it to be an optimal game experience. That is way the lattice system needs to be implemented every where even though the hex system in theory was better.

Rolfski · 2013-08-17, 12:14 PM

The original hex allowed for superior strategic play where you could literally out-maneuver zergs and play the influence system smart to get a faster cap on bigger bases.
It also broke the battle flow, promoted game play that completely avoided the enemy, demanded baby sitting near the capture point (still not fixed) and made PL a very demanding job where you were basically looking at the map all the time and hardly got involved in the real battle.

For sure we need more strategy back into this game that was lost with the lattice system but I rather have that added at a metagame level and not screw up the battle flow.

To summarize: Auraxis needs to be a hex map, not Indar.

Illtempered · 2013-08-18, 01:48 PM

Lmao at this guy Rumblepit's constant raging, and apparent belief that he's God's gift to the battlefield.