If SOE made Planetside 1 Open Source, what should be community focus? - Page 3

SArais · 2014-05-30, 08:51 PM

All I'm seeing from you BFR-Bashing lot is a bunch of whiney little kids going "WAAAAAAAAAAH I DON'T LIKE CHANGE!"

Maybe if you acctually used the things you'd understand.

Just because there's mechs in a game does not make it mechwarrior.

It wasn't because of BFR or CC that planetside was/is dying

It's because of the community being toxic as all hell.

Could lose a finger in here or something.

No, seriously. You're getting up there with the Sonic and C&C franchise fanbases.

Get along, and discuss how to IMPROVE things in-game, not remove them outright or anything they entail outright.

And no, your "br40" excuse is meaningless. The player is customizable and can do many roles. The BFRs compliment this perfectly.

I do not want an "I-Win" button. I want something that a good portion of the playerbase wants back. BFRs are not I WIN. They're about as I WIN as MCGs and JHs.

Only 2-5 people I've run into have been against BFRs and CC in their entirety.

If you want to bitch about something that clearly improves the game, that's fine. but we're probably not going to bother with you.

The reason the game died out stemmed from the fact that people who didn't get the CC expansion were fucked over and didn't get anything out of it. This was changed to be free. Then came BFRs being "OP" (Instead of, you know, working together to counter and kill it), it was nerfed to be weaker than a lightning without its shield.

When you say "jack of all trades is bad for the game", please go look at players with one of each of the following, as an example:

1: CUD
2: Heavy Weapon
3: Rocket Launcher of some manner
4: Medtool
5: Bank
6: REK
7: TREK
8: Grenades

I could go on.

My point being, if BFRs and CC were availible at the start of this game's life, nobody would bat an eye.

Effective · 2014-05-30, 08:56 PM

Originally Posted by SArais

QQQQQ

Go play mechwarrior somewhere else. It's a pretty well established fact that the game began to die because of the introduction of BFR's and SOE's slow ass response in balancing them out.

Thing is, you can't balance out things vehicles like that. They're either going to be too powerful or fucking useless. They need a fucking massive rework if you really want to keep them in the game in a way that makes them both fun to play, and fun to play against.

Jack of all trades goes against the original premise of the game. BR40 is a pretty good analogy with the subject.

SArais · 2014-05-30, 09:01 PM

Originally Posted by Effective

Go play mechwarrior somewhere else. It's a pretty well established fact that the game began to die because of the introduction of BFR's and SOE's slow ass response in balancing them out.

Thing is, you can't balance out things vehicles like that. They're either going to be too powerful or fucking useless. They need a fucking massive rework if you really want to keep them in the game in a way that makes them both fun to play, and fun to play against.

Jack of all trades goes against the original premise of the game. BR40 is a pretty good analogy with the subject.

Oh wow, looks like someone didn't read my post at all.

"Well established fact" By who? You and the other elitist vanilla-only vets? Please.

Instead of coming up with a decent or reasonable comeback, you simply go "QQQQQQQQQ" instead. How laughable

This is why SOE left. Our toxicity.

"jack of all trades goes against the game" See above with the example.

Rework them then. Overhaul them. It's what everyone else does with other games.

Honestly this is just a ludicrous argument that gets nowhere.

I have high dedication for Planetside. and to see such incessant and ostentatiously obscene fighting over a problem that could be fixed without resorting to drastic measures somewhat saddens me.

Effective · 2014-05-30, 09:50 PM

Originally Posted by SArais

Oh wow, looks like someone didn't read my post at all.

"Well established fact" By who? You and the other elitist vanilla-only vets? Please.

Instead of coming up with a decent or reasonable comeback, you simply go "QQQQQQQQQ" instead. How laughable

This is why SOE left. Our toxicity.

"jack of all trades goes against the game" See above with the example.

Rework them then. Overhaul them. It's what everyone else does with other games.

Honestly this is just a ludicrous argument that gets nowhere.

I have high dedication for Planetside. and to see such incessant and ostentatiously obscene fighting over a problem that could be fixed without resorting to drastic measures somewhat saddens me.

Yes, edit your post the same time I post my reply, it's not a huge shock that I might have missed some. Though I addressed everything before you started talking about "I win buttons", the BFR used to be one, this isn't something that can be argued about old BFRs were horribly broken and made using tanks a pointless endeavor in futility while being unkillable without overwhelming it with numbers. Now it's been nerfed to be just so it's an annoying waste of resources on the battlefield that's way too difficult to kill without using way more firepower than should be necessary, assuming it isn't a stupid BFR pilot.

No, graphical data has been presented in the past. Figment probably still has it saved somewhere. Shows that a massive population drop occurs shortly (within months) after the date that BFR's are introduced.

SOE didn't leave because of toxicity, but keep telling yourself that. If they did, that makes them an awful company (they are an awful company still though)

Jack of all trades go against the original premise of the game. This is a fact, it's not something that can be argued about. IF you actually paid any attention to my posts. I've already recommended removal of free rexo, and reducing cert points back down to 20-23 levels. As well as decaying CEP to keep people working to keep their Command rank.

Reworking them. Remove flight variant, remove shields, buff armor, reduce shaking, have jammers affect them like any other vehicle. Remove AA/AI main pilot weapons, more variety in gunner weapons.

Edit = I have found the link, but it's currently down. So I will look for an archived link.
http://archive.today/OWJ5q
After the introduction of BFR's the response was immediate, they were too powerful. They made outfits that specialized in tanks more or less useless. SOE begins to slowly tweak them. They were introduced in late 2004, with it taking around a year to get to where it is now. The population slowly starts to drop off, and suffers a massive drop starting in somewhere around march of 2005.

Don't misunderstand, I'm not saying that BFR's are the only reason Planetside ended up in this state. But they're one of the biggest reasons. That along side a massive of bugs that never get fixed, and slow responses from SOE ustomer service eventually lead to the game becoming what it is.

Hehateme · 2014-05-30, 10:10 PM

Originally Posted by Effective

It's not.

Step 1. Is the content fun to play with?
Step 2. Is the content fun to play against?
Step 3. If not yes to 1 or 2, then don't add it.

Welcome to basically everything I was talking about.

Seriously, why can't you comprehend this. Just because your ideas are different, does not make them "correct". While I agree with most of you opinions, who are we to decide what is right.

Let's look at your steps from two perspectives, about BFR's, shall we ?

Perspective #1 let's call him xSAraisx to keep an anonymous form.
Step 1. Are BFR's fun to play with? YES
Step 2. Are BFR's fun to play against. YES (while I'm assuming yes, he's implied at least once that it is possible to beat, so fair assumption.)
Step 3. If not yes to 1 or 2, then don't add it. Well by xSArais's standpoint, keep BFR's in the game.

Perspective #2 keeping with the anonymous format, let's call him xEffectivex
Step 1. Are BFR's fun to play with? NO
Step 2. Are BFR's fun to play against? NO
Step 3. If not yes to 1 or 2, then don't add it. Well by xEffective's standpoint, get rid of BFR's completely.

Now do you see the issue? You're assuming that your view is 100% correct, and while I agree with it, we cannot assume everyone will be okay with this.

Nitpicking, or removing/altering certain things will cause a split in the community. See my quotes below.

Originally Posted by Hehateme

Trust me this is a bad idea. Besides the fact that it is pointless, it will divide the community. Look at Quake/CS in their respected primes. Quake 3 had CPMa(best)/vq3/osp/ra3/Freezetag/insta/.... list goes on. CounterStrike had 1.everything till 1.6 was established competitive mode. All these community splits were based off of minor changes.

Originally Posted by SArais

We're obviously never going to agree on these things. Split it into two servers, Those who want everything in CC and BFR, and those who don't.

Originally Posted by Hehateme

Oh God, it's happening! This kind of attitude split the quake/CS communities, two games with a much, much bigger playerbase. IF Planetside were to ever released as an Open source, we need 1 server. Anymore would cause everything to fail.

Effective · 2014-05-30, 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by Hehateme

Seriously, why can't you comprehend this. Just because your ideas are different, does not make them "correct". While I agree with most of you opinions, who are we to decide what is right.

Let's look at your steps from two perspectives, about BFR's, shall we ?

Perspective #1 let's call him xSAraisx to keep an anonymous form.
Step 1. Are BFR's fun to play with? YES
Step 2. Are BFR's fun to play against. YES (while I'm assuming yes, he's implied at least once that it is possible to beat, so fair assumption.)
Step 3. If not yes to 1 or 2, then don't add it. Well by xSArais's standpoint, keep BFR's in the game.

Perspective #2 keeping with the anonymous format, let's call him xEffectivex
Step 1. Are BFR's fun to play with? NO
Step 2. Are BFR's fun to play against? NO
Step 3. If not yes to 1 or 2, then don't add it. Well by xEffective's standpoint, get rid of BFR's completely.

Now do you see the issue? You're assuming that your view is 100% correct, and while I agree with it, we cannot assume everyone will be okay with this.

Nitpicking, or removing/altering certain things will cause a split in the community. See my quotes below.

Nope, pretty sure my Ideas are correct. BFR's are fun to fight if you're a masochist I guess.

There's more than 3 steps ultimately, but that was an extremely simplified form.

Figment · 2014-05-30, 10:53 PM

Originally Posted by SArais

All I'm seeing from you BFR-Bashing lot is a bunch of whiney little kids going "WAAAAAAAAAAH I DON'T LIKE CHANGE!"

Funny, that's what we read in your posts.

But if that is truly what you think is being said, you're comprehensive reading skills need some work. :|

Trying to do away with a list of practical arguments as whining is just pathetic. You're not making yourself heard here. Especially not since you're not open to any form of compromise, not open to any change to BFRs yourself (hypocritical, but worse, it's still all due to admitted ego-centric argumentation of what you personally want, with complete disregard for others who "must adapt or die". Using that type of argument alone means you lost all credibility), nor do you even remotely accept nor respect that people simply don't like the implementations of BFRs thusfar (and the original in particular) and you behave incredibly insulting.

Your claims that you only ran into 2-5 people that disliked BFRs is ridiculous, considering my entire outfit of 120 people is against them and refuses to operate them, save one person. And apparently you're selectively blind to the hundreds of posts of people leaving over BFRs not getting nerfed or removed. I expressly recall loads of furious tank, buggy and ground transport players demanding huge nerfs (especially to the FV variant and solo variants), within months, or they'd leave, giving SOE the benefit of the doubt. After two months, some fixes were made. This was FAR too late and the pops had dropped to a point where natural attrition of players would eventually make it die, since there was no marketing campaign to get new players in, players that left told other people not to join due to BFRs and SOE was distracted by EverQuest II, because just as everyone was getting mighty pissed off at the BFRs, World of Warcraft came out.

Apparently, you didn't notice the player statistics playing dropped by around 50% in two months upon the introduction of BFRs and dropped by approximately 75% in the months following, with the population only stabilising, but never recovering, let alone rising, after the BFRs got nerfed.

BFRs were simply unwanted. Deal with it. You, as a regular user, are one of the few people with an extremely favourable bias to them to the point you'll rub it in to others that you could beat them.

If you think the BFR is comparable to a jackhammer or MCG, then you're an absolute idiot who due to pink goggles didn't see how strongly a group of BFRs would completely remove any dynamic flow from the battle and would cause camping on bases and considerably worse boring stalemates in outdoor play, where a lot of units that required more teamwork than BFRs became simply unviable over night. The MCG or JH never made the Sweeper, Gauss or Cycler redundant, nor did they stop these from being competitive.

Babyfark McGeez · 2014-05-30, 11:09 PM

I never really had a problem with BFRs, and at the time it was the only mmofps that had them...ok it was the only mmofps period. I also liked old oshur and at the same time like the new rules, just not the blocky islands.

But you see, that's the problem here, we all played this game for a long time, most of you probably more then me, so we all have special attachments or special dislikes to certain aspects and elements.
Condensing all those different opinions (and the ones on here are just some of them) into one concept and ruleset for a Ps server would be extremely difficult when you start messing with the details.

Which is why i say keep it as simple and "default" as possible. That being said i wouldn't start a campaign for BFRs if they should stay in VR.

Now SOE, where is our source code? Internet law demands you give us a try.

Edit:
Also, what really sometimes annoys me about this BFR debate; There is allways this weird conclusion being made by people who really, really dislike BFRs, that no FPS game ever should have them - or atleast no planetside game. Now by all means, don't get me wrong, the dislike for BFRs itself is completely reasonable in my opinion after the first introduction of them into Ps1.
But the conclusion that because of the way they worked back then they therefore can never be implemented again is, quite honestly, ludicrous. With some creative thinking and simple number tweaking they could fit in without a problem. Just replace their guns with emp thumpers, problem solved.
In the end it's simply a question of aesthetics: do you like a mech in your fps or not. And i do.

Hehateme · 2014-05-30, 11:18 PM

Originally Posted by Effective

Nope, pretty sure my Ideas are correct. BFR's are fun to fight if you're a masochist I guess.

There's more than 3 steps ultimately, but that was an extremely simplified form.

Honestly, BFR's killed this game, yes. However, that is because of how they were when they were released. BFR's haven't been OP since they were first nerf'd whenever that happened. People left because of OP BFR's but they've been fine for years.

SArais · 2014-05-30, 11:46 PM

Originally Posted by Babyfark McGeez

I never really had a problem with BFRs, and at the time it was the only mmofps that had them...ok it was the only mmofps period. I also liked old oshur and at the same time like the new rules, just not the blocky islands.

But you see, that's the problem here, we all played this game for a long time, most of you probably more then me, so we all have special attachments or special dislikes to certain aspects and elements.
Condensing all those different opinions (and the ones on here are just some of them) into one concept and ruleset for a Ps server would be extremely difficult when you start messing with the details.

Which is why i say keep it as simple and "default" as possible. That being said i wouldn't start a campaign for BFRs if they should stay in VR.

Now SOE, where is our source code? Internet law demands you give us a try.

Edit:
Also, what really sometimes annoys me about this BFR debate; There is allways this weird conclusion being made by people who really, really dislike BFRs, that no FPS game ever should have them - or atleast no planetside game. Now by all means, don't get me wrong, the dislike for BFRs itself is completely reasonable in my opinion after the first introduction of them into Ps1.
But the conclusion that because of the way they worked back then they therefore can never be implemented again is, quite honestly, ludicrous. With some creative thinking and simple number tweaking they could fit in without a problem. Just replace their guns with emp thumpers, problem solved.
In the end it's simply a question of aesthetics: do you like a mech in your fps or not. And i do.

Originally Posted by Hehateme

Honestly, BFR's killed this game, yes. However, that is because of how they were when they were released. BFR's haven't been OP since they were first nerf'd whenever that happened. People left because of OP BFR's but they've been fine for years.

THANK YOU. PEOPLE WITH WITH REASON.

Yes, the original implementation of BFRs being OP when first released is likely a game killer (But honestly, what's worse, BFRs or Hackers?) They were nerfed and people complained they were nerfed. There's no winning on the subject.

Anyone I've seen who's actually had hands on one immediately grew attached to them.

We atleast need to ask Twitch if he intended to fix CC+BFR.

Sadly it seems unlikely, but atleast he fixed our Cyssor bug, and for that we should repay him somehow.

I just wish some errant thing happened (Like PS2 shutting down) and PS1 came back to its glory days, which I never experienced

My only regret about Planetside is not joining sooner.

I look at BFR's objectively, and I'm not seeing a problem here. I'm really not. It's much like people reacting to swear words. They're not bad, it's just people's reactions to them that have made them bad.

Also, what are you talking about? EMPs -do- work on BFRs. if not even more effectively than normal vehicles.

Effect, that's called an opinion.

Effective · 2014-05-31, 12:16 AM

Originally Posted by Hehateme

Honestly, BFR's killed this game, yes. However, that is because of how they were when they were released. BFR's haven't been OP since they were first nerf'd whenever that happened. People left because of OP BFR's but they've been fine for years.

Fine as in it not broken firepower, but not fine in that they're still incredibly annoying to deal with if the pilot isn't pants on head retarded. There really isn't a way to kill someone who uses a BFR in a intelligent fashion (stay in groups, far enough apart to avoid being OS'd close enough to provide cover fire against infantry/anyone trying to hit shield generators).

A really big part of the problem is the shield and flight variants, removal of these would go a long way towards getting BFR's in a spot that they actually become fun to play against.

And no, Jammers don't not work more effectively against BFR's. Yes, it reduces movement speed and refire rate. However, when you hit a regular vehicle with a jammer, it stops them from firing period. Hitting them with a second jammer refreshes the timer on the vehicle being jammed.

Hitting a BFR with a second or third jammer has never worked properly. You have to wait for it to become unjammed first, then hit it with another jammer.

Zeta · 2014-05-31, 12:58 AM

If SOE sees a thread with 3 pages of agreement and consensus then maybe, maybe, they might act. But if they see a thread with 3 pages of non-consensus and disagreement then they wont touch it.

Effective · 2014-05-31, 01:04 AM

Originally Posted by Zeta

If SOE sees a thread with 3 pages of agreement and consensus then maybe, maybe, they might act. But if they see a thread with 3 pages of non-consensus and disagreement then they wont touch it.

They're not going to act either way.

Hehateme · 2014-05-31, 01:09 AM

Originally Posted by SArais

Some stuff.

I really feel like I mislead you with my post. I'm simply playing devil's advocate as I believe you're not arguing correct. BFR's DO fill a roll already filled by tanks. BFR's ARE what killed this game. BFR's ARE hated by the vast majority of current/past players.

I feel figgy (<3) did a great job at explaining why BFR's killed the game, but I'll explain my take on it. I was around pre-BFR's. When the announcement was made about them, SOE hyped them up to unbelievable lengths. However, they were not implemented correctly. When BFR's first were unveiled they were completely unstoppable, a horrible player could get 100 kills before they died. Also, they were EVERYWHERE, everyone and their brother went and certed BFR to try them out. As figgy stated, everyone quit. Pops never recovered, and this is the moment, where I consider, Planetside starting to die. (with the lower pops created a whole new gameplay that isn't how Planetside, in my humble opinion, is meant to be played.)

Once you got the flight variant of BFR's you could fill a role, that required 2 skilled tank occupants (3 if TR) to achieve. It took the aspects of teamwork and communication, in the armor fights, completely out of the picture.

That being said, BFR's in their nerfed state, do not hurt the game as much, they do still hurt the tank game, (but meh that hasn't been a roll since, you guessed it, BFR's were first implemented) BFR's killed the game in two ways. #1) see my aforementioned point, and #2) all new players were constantly told "BFR's suck ect ect" from us who were around when they did kill the game.

My argument is that you cannot simply disable BFR's, it's either pre-bending 100% or post-bending 100% you cannot nitpick as this will divide the community.

As to your point about cyssor-wasp being fixed I'll quote my fellow werner vets in saying "bollox" I was instagibbed 3x in a mossie tonight by a wasp on cyssor. Nothing is fixed.

Sidenote: Wasp is another pathetic intrusion by SOE. "You can't dogfight? How sad, take this it'll make you good".

P.S. (can you sidenote and P.S. in one post idk but hey) Stop saying, "BFR's or hackers". If CC/BFR's were enabled currently, it would not stop hackers. That makes no sense, no p.o.s. is thinking "I'm ruining this dead game, because I can't run around in a cave with no one in it." Keep in mind, we are talking about this game on a private server, if this game ever get's open sourced, which I highly doubt (sadly).

Originally Posted by Effective

Hitting a BFR with a second or third jammer has never worked properly. You have to wait for it to become unjammed first, then hit it with another jammer.

This times 1,000. I never understood why they didn't fix this. It was so annoying. Back when BFR's were rampant, I use to "BFR hunt" with deci's/jams in my kit and they would always escape with 25% health because my jam didn't work. Another "bravo" moment brought to you by Sony Online Entertainment.

Zeta · 2014-05-31, 01:14 AM

Originally Posted by Effective

They're not going to act either way.

I know ;) They already said there'd be no support. I'm just attesting to the fact that like most things in life, you generally need a consensus first before you see action.