Driver/Gunners... NO! - Page 30

Landtank · 2012-07-12, 06:48 PM

Originally Posted by DukeTerror

Yeah, I didn't expect my 1driver/1gunner tank vs 2 solo tanks comment to turn into such a math debate. What Losers! J/K However, it's a really about can the 2player tank maneuver, dodge, and aim better than the solo tanks because of the two focused players and ability to see in two directions.

The obvious answer is yes

Could not disagree with you more.

The obvious answer is no, they are honestly even. Play World of Tanks, if I had someone gunning for me I would just end up getting pissed off because they might not see the same shot as me, etc.

Figment · 2012-07-12, 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by Klockan

So much bullshit in this post and this probably takes the cake. Do you really think that the community for WoT would be bigger if they had separated gunner and driver? The community is small because the game sucks with utterly worthless scenarios, almost everyone would stop playing it after ~2 games if they didn't have the grind. Battlefield games are way more solo oriented than WoT but its community is still thriving, mainly because the game is more engaging.

I was saying... People play longer... if they're part of a community...

If you ever frequent the gameplay discussion forums of WoT, ask if they think WoT is a good community builder game.

Trust me on this: they don't think it's great at building a community due to the random setup of the matchmaker and because clan wars and even Tank Company matches are very inaccessible for the lower tiered. Which unfortunately is the root equalizer of the game since it's needed to keep tiered matches fairly 'balanced'.

If you can call tiered matches with the power distance they utilise balance...

And the thing about how you are a better tank player because you have used a 2 man tank... That is just a ridiculous statement. No, you are a better tank player because you are a more serious player than 99% of the players out there. You know how I know that? Because you played planetside. You payed a monthly fee just to play an fps. No, you aren't a better player because you have done X or played Y, you are a better player since you care more.

No, I said I got a lot of experience purely driving in PlanetSide 1 and thus if I have to compensate for gunning my efficiency is higher (read: not reduced as much as that of other players who never simply drove a lot and never had as much competence in the first place). Driving is second nature to me. Compensating for gunning is therefore less hard on me. Is that really strange to say?

But you're saying if you got the money to pay a sub, or find it worthwhile, you're by default a better player because you care? Eh... "Apathic" is the word I've been using for a lot of CR5s with regards to rsecuring. They just cared for the killing in the end.

But wait till I tell the zerg or the people that bought tier 8 Premium Tanks in WoT that if you spend money you're a better player! =D

You catch the drift.

Tbh, I personally feel in WoT to be a better player it's mostly about willingness to work together with total strangers, which in PS1 you learned to do lots and then you got to know them better. Being able to break the ice usualy helps create a cooperative spirit. Hence I usualy make jokes or provoke light spirited rivalries with the enemies ("they took our pies!" "They said your granny's tank rusts!"), try and create a group feeling. Get people to share info. Try to make sure flanks are covered and my personal favourite: flank an enemy and turn their heavily armoured side towards me as they try to protect their butt, while the actual heavy tanks get to fire at the now exposed soft sides. I just can't stand people on forums when they dismiss arguments off hand, like a lot of people in these "WAIT FOR BETA" type threads tend to do. :/

But the group tactics learned in PS1 work like a charm in WoT thanks to the armour system: every time cause players rather block shots by turning hull and turret from one nearby tier 8 enemy than 2-3 tier 9 tanks sniping. <3 Aah. The smell of burning peons trumped by teamplay in the morning. Basically... I know full well how to take full advantage of single crew vehicles and entice randoms to use my insane rushes to their advantage by communicating the plan. But also hence why I fear so much for the multi crew vehicles, because they'll get outnumbered and will be so easy to flank and overwhelm...

With regards to World of Tanks, with multi-crew player tanks tank combat in it would be far more dynamic and as long as they're on equal footing, more enjoyable, yes. Unfortunately, the aiming system (auto-compensates for height and distance making leading an targeting very easy) and damage/tier systems would create a huge problem (a lot of tanks can one or two shot other tanks due to tier differences and power distance). That'd make it really frustrating to play with two people: get one shot by a higher tier solo player. In PS, there's no tier system and damage per shot lower, so that shouldn't be an issue as long as two crew units are more powerful in comparison.

Anyway, I've often advised on WoT forums to make a bit more challenging aiming system within some "expert" battle mode, just to create a more challenging and dynamic game play. Then fast moving units could make better use of their maneuvrability and make up for their lack of hitpoints, firepower and armour compared to heavy and higher tier tanks. Opposed to now where if they show themselves at range, they often die within 10 seconds - which is one reason why combat is so static. And boring, tbh. The other is that accuracy on the move is virtually impossible at long distance and you almost always have to cross long distances at first. Plus if you stand still, you can fire undetected from bushes with a lot of units. Plus if you get sighted, artillery starts homing in on you (since everyone else isn't shown yet...). Hence often times, nobody moves out of fear. Hence why camping is such an issue in WoT and gameplay so static.

PS 1 and 2 both have a much better aiming system in that regards and you don't have to hit miniscule parts of enemy tanks to not just hit, but also deal damage. That dynamic combat is an advantage to a good driver, even if less effective due to gunning, as said before, there's a lot to compensate for if you drive a tank alone with some buddies in other tanks.

Originally Posted by Landtank

Could not disagree with you more.

The obvious answer is no, they are honestly even. Play World of Tanks, if I had someone gunning for me I would just end up getting pissed off because they might not see the same shot as me, etc.

Would you mind sharing your WoT name and server please? >.>

Vanir · 2012-07-12, 07:09 PM

Optional cert that allows the driver to choose to give up use of the main Cannon. In return for opening up a 3rd seat in the tank, a main gunner seat. There for you would have the driver, the main gunner, and the secondary gunner.

vasito · 2012-07-12, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by Vanir

Optional cert that allows the driver to choose to give up use of the main Cannon. In return for opening up a 3rd seat in the tank, a main gunner seat. There for you would have the driver, the main gunner, and the secondary gunner.

Yes. I see no problem with this.

fod · 2012-07-12, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by Vanir

Optional cert that allows the driver to choose to give up use of the main Cannon. In return for opening up a 3rd seat in the tank, a main gunner seat. There for you would have the driver, the main gunner, and the secondary gunner.

this would be awesome

i dont mind too much if people want to solo drive a tank but dont force it on me if i want to have dedicated gunners - a cert so i can do this will be fine by me

maradine · 2012-07-12, 07:45 PM

I think that's pretty fair, considering both camps think they're more effective in combat.

Littleman · 2012-07-12, 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by Vanir

Optional cert that allows the driver to choose to give up use of the main Cannon. In return for opening up a 3rd seat in the tank, a main gunner seat. There for you would have the driver, the main gunner, and the secondary gunner.

I'm just quoting this before this thread blissfully flies off on another extreme tangent. (not the first time this has been suggested...)

As an extension to the idea, the turret shouldn't rotate with the chassis when this cert is active, and neither should having the cert active consume a modification slot if any such thing exists. I still don't really know how the customization plays out yet as the videos didn't offer a whole lot of insight either because E3 was severely limited, or Higby pretty much had his tank set up the way he wanted it from the start.

And for the record, the cert should be free and immediately available.

Alternatively, the devs could come up with a simpler method: a little toggle box next to the selection item

WorldOfForms · 2012-07-12, 09:11 PM

There's another aspect that makes 2 solo tanks better than one tank with 2 players in it.

Armor regeneration. If both players cert regeneration, they not only have double the hitpoints of a single tank, the have double the regeneration rate. This, combined with tactics where they can trade off facing the brunt of enemy lines means they can create a revolving, regenerating 2-tank unit.

They also have the ability to cover each other's rear - if one tank needs to retreat quickly, the other can block LOS to the vulnerable rear by placing his own front armor in the way.

AzureWatcher · 2012-07-12, 09:34 PM

I admit it: I suck at using turrets. No matter what game it is, I'm terrible at them. When the vehicle turns and messes up your angle of fire or if they begin to move while you are lining up a shot or the driver positions itself so you can have a shot at target A but you didn't know that target was there and instead was looking at B, etc.

I know this, so I don't go into turrets. However there are people out there who are just as bad but jump into tanks anyways, reducing optimal performance.

I would much rather be able to drive and fire my own cannon. I am in perfect sync with myself. I know what my intentions are and I know how to position myself to achieve my objective. This simply isn't possible when you are with another player. Whether you know them or not doesn't matter.

So, I'm very glad that the driver gets to man his own main cannon. However, there are other vehicles that require multiple people to be used optimally. The sunderer, liberator, and galaxy just to name a few. And this is okay and fine and lovely. Because these are much more team based vehicles than the MBTs can ever dream of being.

It's not always a bad thing to draw in mechanics from other games like Battlefield and Halo and etc. This is one of those cases.

DukeTerror · 2012-07-12, 10:34 PM

Originally Posted by Littleman

As an extension to the idea, the turret shouldn't rotate with the chassis when this cert is active, and neither should having the cert active consume a modification slot if any such thing exists.

I agree with you here. I called it counter-rotating but heck if I know what the term should be. But I have a feeling with the way the flight system got overhauled into a more "pro" mode with needing active throttling and tilt control to hover and maneuver, they may keep turrets fixed to the chassis motion just to keep the difficulty challenging (for all turrets not just MBT). Yeah it sucks when you got a bad driver, but the built-in voice channel for vehicles should help call out turns and targets.

Nirawen · 2012-07-12, 10:48 PM

I completely agree with the OP. I felt the driver/gunner(s) setup was perfect in PS1 and will be fairly disappointed in that aspect if there's not at least a cert option for separating the two.

I was definitely planning on certing heavily into the Prowler but would be upset if it ends up just being a fat Lightning

.

vVRedOctoberVv · 2012-07-12, 10:57 PM

Originally Posted by DukeTerror

Ah, I get you now. Yeah that would e a whole new mechanic to debate about. With future technology theme you could allow it it either way and Im sure that's not locked down in development (good code base should allow both options anyway - just a toggle for the designer to choose). I think a counter-turning turret would be the more fun playstyle of course just for the reasons you've said.

Same basic thing as barrel stabilisation, that the Abrams has always been so famous for but has actually been around since the 40s :P That a tank would have a turret with "smart" compensation for movements is not unreasonable. Actually, considering the rate technology advances, by the time Planetside future gets here, we'll probably think each other to death.... Which is almost what we're doing here with this thread :P

SgtExo · 2012-07-12, 11:01 PM

As soon as my beta invite gets here I doubt that I will check the forums as much, its just there is no other games that I want to play, so this is the next best thing.

SnipeGrzywa · 2012-07-12, 11:48 PM

For those that are fine with the driver/gunner model, you all say certing to give up the main gun is fine.

Well how about this... Basic free cert is just driving the vehicle. From there you build up your addons and weapons. Toward the end of the tree you finally unlock the driver/gunner cert. SInce you "mastered" the tank you can now do it all. But starting off you are to inexperienced to do it.

Because why would you cert to give up something? You will be certing to get MORE.

Still don't want this option, but it's an acceptable compromise.

vVRedOctoberVv · 2012-07-12, 11:52 PM

Originally Posted by SnipeGrzywa

For those that are fine with the driver/gunner model, you all say certing to give up the main gun is fine.

Well how about this... Basic free cert is just driving the vehicle. From there you build up your addons and weapons. Toward the end of the tree you finally unlock the driver/gunner cert. SInce you "mastered" the tank you can now do it all. But starting off you are to inexperienced to do it.

Because why would you cert to give up something? You will be certing to get MORE. Plus

Still don't want this option, but it's an acceptable compromise.

One other person suggested this, and while I don't like it persay, it is far more sensible than what they're doing now (which is the other way around).

Now, as to who is "right", I'm giving you each a knife. Over here, I dug a pit. I'll check back in twenty minutes to see who won the argument