Planetside Idea Lab - Page 30

Hayoo · 2004-09-21, 12:08 AM

Yeah, Greyflcn. That would be very nice to have (truncated kills spam).

@Gohan: griffin flight plan?

oddfish · 2004-09-22, 09:11 PM

Hey, Hayoo

out of curiosity, has any buzz been created about the temporary and semi-mobile (needs to be moved by vehicle) Artillery/Machinegun/Anti-air installations/nests/outposts ???

We'd discussed this not too long ago and I still think that this concept would vastly improve the game due to its ability to open up the playing field and offer new goals to the player-base. I just think that capping and re-capping bases all day isn't always fun and perhaps setting up ambushes with Machine Gun Nests and setting up artillery or anti aircraft outposts would be very cool. As would be getting a team together to assault them.

I look at it this way. You cap the weaponry just like you hack a vehicle or console or whatever and anyone can do it (hackers just do it faster) all except for machine gun nests which don't need hacked to be used. Anyways, hacking Guns gets you CEP if you're the squad/platoon leader because obviously you put together quite an assault to be able to take over an outpost. And you get BEP if you're not in command. Hacking the guns gives you BEP or CEP, depending. And destroying enemy guns gives you BEP. Not a lot, but about the same amount you'd get for single handedly taking down a MAX unit.

I think this would be a great addition because AT and AA outposts would be discreet and could be anywhere, so you'd have to form scout and assault teams to find and take them out. Plus, there'd be columns of Deliverers (which i think should be responsible for transport of the weapons) roaming the countryside to set up outposts, and this, of course, would mean that there'd be people out there interested in setting up ambushes and hunting down the columns. This opens up SOOOOO many different options when you sign on to play. Because now you don't just have to cap bases and towers. NOW you can ambush, scout, assault and set up outposts. Engineers will have a new responsibility as well since they'll have to maintain and defend the outposts with spitfires and the like.

Now, as far as machine gun nests are concerned. I think that it would be a nice little addition to the common pool. It'd take up quite a bit of space in your inventory, but you wouldn't have it in there long to begin with. You run out to where you want to put it. You set it up like deploying anything from an ACE (only it takes a bit longer) and then you can either man it or leave it for someone else. It has it's own ammunition store and a metal shield that offers a mild degree of frontal protection, but it has to be maintained. It will stay in place, just like a spitfire or mine, but, like i said, it runs out of ammo, and it takes damage just like anything else. This MG would be Common Pool and it would be pretty damn good at taking out both infantry and vehicles, as AP rounds would be availible to it as well.

Now, Artillery would be Empire Specific, i think. This would provide even more incentive to capturing enemy outposts.

AA may just be some kind of quad barreled flak gun. dunno, perhaps empire specific, like an immobile MAX or something.

Arty would require a gunner and and the help of a spotter that would use Binoculars or a laser, whichever. AA would just be a gunner.

Deliverers would be the transports (which makes the ground transport cert more necessary and appealing) and certing in GT would give you the option to hook on an AT piece at the Vehicle Terminal. Now, there'd be a looooooooong down time before you could get another Arty piece. This way the world wouldn't be flooded with 'em. And only GT can get Arty pieces. Which is good because that too will prevent flooding and over-use. Whoring, if you will.

Also, Arty and AA can't be set up in a base's SOI. They also can't spawn on/in a tower. Neither can MG nests. These are all outside deployables only because they're meant to open the playing field. Open it. OPEN.

As far as my idea for the Deliverer being the tow vehicle of choice: well, that's simple. It's a transport vehicle with a big trunk. I say hitch the arty and AA pieces up to it and carry their ammo in the trunk. That's another thing. Ammo. AA and Arty pieces will not come with their own ammo supply upon acquisiton. You have to load the trunk of the Deliverer up from a Vehicle Repar/Refit station or load it up from an Equip Terminal with the ammo, and then supply the Arty and AA guns by carrying the ammo and inserting it into the guns themselves once they're deployed. Kinda like in real life, only not.

Some common points that are made:

"Won't arty stations be Liberator food?"
- Not if AA is set up properly to defend from air assault. If an outpost is defended properly then it shouldn't fall until it is taken down. On the other hand, if an outpost isn't properly defended than it, just like any other target, deserves to be Liberator food.

"There'll be nests and outposts everywhere. Whores! Whores!"
-Negative. There'll be significant down time on all AA and Arty piece acquisition. Even the MG nest will have down time, albeit shorter than the AA and Arty downtime.

"Why shouldn't Adv. Engineers just get these things as upgrades?"
-Because i think that it's stupid to give a cert that already has plenty of stuff to go with it more stuff only availible to it. GT needs a buff. (i don't cert in GT, i cert in Armored Assault, get off my case) Besides, Deli's got pretty nice trunk space to load up ammo for the Guns.

"Won't it take a while to set up outposts? Won't that make them inconvenient?"
-No. Simple reason why: If you've got enough guys doing it then it shouldn't take long to set any of it up. Now, sure, they'll be a tad be time consuming to set up, but not inconvenient. This way more time and effort will be put into defending the outposts. And, by that merit, more time will be put into assaulting them.

"There'll be Machine Gun nests all over creation!"
-Not really. They'll be in places similar to spitfires. Also, they'll be set in defense of outposts and such. You may see a MG nest in some remote place every once in a while. But, you see Spitfires in remote places every once in a while as well. So, stfu.

"Anyone can shoot the guns! Won't people be fighting over who gets to shoot 'em! WTF?"
-That's something that players will have to figure out amongst themselves. Learn to work together, guys. That's why we have empires and teams and what not.

"When BFR's come out, won't this make the outposts wayyy to easy to destroy?"
-No, as i said before, i properly defended outpost shouldn't have anything to worry about as long as the force that is attacking it isn't properly equipped to destroy it. Sure, a BFR will have less trouble taking out an outpost than say, a team of three guys in REXO, but still, that only makes sense. BFR's will have their share to worry about when attacking an outpost. Those arty guns will be nice anti-BFR tools

"If that's the case, then won't this make BFR's waaay to easy to destroy?"
-Again, no. Why? Because BFR's will just have to learn to negotiate Arty fire. That's all. Like anything else, if you cert in something you have to learn to adapt to combat with that cert. Certed in BFR? Better learn to fight with BFR. If you're getting owned, then maybe you should find a new cert.

"How will this add balance or make the game better, then?"
-As i said before, it'll open it up and make use of all that wide open space on these beautifully laid out continents that often go unexplored by most players.

Plus, it provides new objectives and new jobs. It makes the game more interesting. As far as balance is concerned, why does it have to balance something that's already balanced. And i find it impossible to think that this idea would fuck up the balance.

"Doesn't this seem like maybe it'd be too much work for the dev's"
-Let's let the Dev's decide, eh? Besides, many of the people i've played with and talked to online think that this would be an excellent addition.

I'll post my original layout for this idea once I find it. Plus, i drew up some pikchors. Posting them soon as well

Rbstr · 2004-09-22, 09:22 PM

Originally Posted by Hayoo

Yeah, Greyflcn. That would be very nice to have (truncated kills spam).

@Gohan: griffin flight plan?

in World of Warcraft the Gryphon masters have "!" over there head if you can open you the flight plan wtich allows you to return there on a gryphon next time

Hayoo · 2004-09-22, 09:32 PM

Originally Posted by Rbstr

in World of Warcraft the Gryphon masters have "!" over there head if you can open you the flight plan wtich allows you to return there on a gryphon next time

Oh yes, I remember now. But that also extends to anyone who has a quest for you, correct?

Hayoo · 2004-09-22, 09:36 PM

Originally Posted by oddfish

Hey, Hayoo

out of curiosity, has any buzz been created about the temporary and semi-mobile (needs to be moved by vehicle) Artillery/Machinegun/Anti-air installations/nests/outposts ???

Actually, my last question to T-Ray at Mobilzation Alpha was if these were technically possible and he said Yes.

As for any buzz, my versions gave a stir a while back but I think people have forgotten about them now that I posted the outfit images from Idealab forums.

But I'm sure if we post our ideas again, they will generate interest once more.

oddfish · 2004-09-22, 09:36 PM

Originally Posted by Hayoo

Actually, my last question to T-Ray at Mobilzation Alpha was if these were technically possible and he said Yes.

As for any buzz, my versions gave a stir a while back but I think people have forgotten about them now that I posted the outfit images from Idealab forums.

But I'm sure if we post our ideas again, they will generate interest once more.

i'm on it, homie

CassH · 2004-09-22, 09:51 PM

Bring it up again and then again if they forget again. your outfit panels are Awsome and they would help Everyone alot.

And my Idea witch i ahve wanted for a bit now but it hink would help ALOT now with the BFRs up and comeing is Key maping favorites.

oddfish · 2004-09-23, 12:49 AM

i need to get cracking on the diagrams for the outposts..

oddfish · 2004-09-23, 03:23 AM

Okay. Here we go.

Towable Artillery/Anti-Aircraft guns:
The concept behind this is very simple.
When a given PlanetSide player who has certification in Ground Transport goes to choose his vehicle from any standard vehicle terminal (that's all of 'em) he will now have two new options: Deliverer w/ Attached Artillery or Deliverer w/ Attached AA Gun.

The vehicle will materialize on the pad, as is customary, only with the packed and hitched towable gun attached to it via some kind of trailer hitch. Kinda like how the military moves field artillery in RL. Now, the Deliverer will tow the gun to the position desired by the driver and then he or an ally will have to get out and unhook the gun. I'm trying to determine whether it would be more efficient to make the piece moveable via ground troop when it is still packed (i.e. he can kind of push it around a bit) or if perhaps it should be immobile once it is unhooked from the Deliverer. In either case the gun must then be unpacked, which will take a few moments, and then supplied with ammo that should be stored in the trunk of the Deliverer or in the inventory of the soldiers who are arming the Gun. The gun itself has no ammo pre-loaded. This is the job of the infantry. If ammo is stored in a vehicle trunk, then players must take the ammo from the trunk and load it into the gun. The gun will then autoload the shells that are put in the gun's ammo hold.

This goes for both the Anti-aircraft gun and the Artillery piece. I figure, why make it much more complicated than that?

Now, as far as the types of Artillery are concerned, I've been toying with the notion of either Empire specific artillery or just different types of ammo for the same Common Pool artillery piece. Almost like making a giant Thumper out of the Arty gun.

I'll explain:

Common Pool:

Under this system, the artillery piece will be the same for each empire, but it will have several options of ammo availible for use. This would be cool and would have many advantages, but also may pose problems.

High Explosive Ammo: You're basic artillery ammo that explodes real big and does essentially what the Flail does, only it's a shell, not energy stuff. Some may ask "Then why not just park four flails far from a base and make THAT an outpost. Here's why: Because you can't just leave the flail there afterwards and go get another vehicle or some such. After a while it'll deconstruct or it will be deconstructed by the user. You can't deconstruct the AA and AT pieces. Moving on.

High Explosive: Kaboom. Good all around ammo. Does lots of damage.
Cluster Ammo: Much like the cluster ammo the Liberators drop, only in artillery shell form
Jammer/EMP Ammo: Massive EMP shell that does what a jammer 'nade does, only bigger, and blows up mines like whaoh.
Plasma Ammo: Same thing as Plasma 'nade, only bigger
Shock Ammo: Loud ammo that deafens infantry and saps their stamina, also does a degree of damage in the immediate blast area. Only a loud ringing will be heard, and infantry will have to walk everywhere until their stamina comes back.
Mine Ammo: Lays about five-ten mines in a myriad pattern. Mine fields?

Frequent comment:

"Why not just blow the crap out of everything with High Explosive ammo? Why use the other stuff?"
-The versatility offered with the other ammo allows for many different options. Perhaps you don't want to attract too much attention to your operation by blowing the hell out of the target with the extremely loud HE shells. Plus, HE shells don't have a huge blast radius and can't guarantee that you're going to kill a heavy vehicle in one shot anyways nor a large group of infantry. HE ammo is just for blowing stuff up as much as it can. Jammer shells can disable enemy vehicle weapons in one shot for a period of time and give assaulting troops a better shot at taking the base. Shock ammo is an experimental concept I came up with because I figured it'd be cool to have a kind of ammunition that allows allied troops to run in and decimate enemy infantry with ease. Fun shit. Plasma shells are good because, if aimed at an entrance or doorway or something of that nature it can clear it quickly and spread plasma every where. Also fun. Cluster ammo is just good for hammering tons of infantry at once. Mine ammo, well, think about it. Mine fields in a jiffy. Of course, mine ammo would take up a lot of space in the cannon's ammo store so that it couldn't cover the whole map with mines. Okay, that's the different ammo types.

Here's what I thought about for empire specific artillery:

Terran Republic
The TR would get an artillery piece that could fire either cluster or HE ammo, but it would have much higher ammo capacity in comparison to the NC or VS arty piece and it would also fire in much more rapid succession. The shells wouldn't be the most powerful availible, but the guns would sure toss a lot of lead into the air and wreak chaos on enemy troops and vehicles.

New Conglomerate
The NC would get rocket artillery. It would have greater range and power than the TR gun, but be much slower and have much lower capacity. The two forms of ammo would be HE and Jammer. The rockets, which would be pretty damn huge, would be tube launched and take a bit longer to load than the TR version. The balance being in the longer range and firepower but less capacity and speed.

Vanu Sovereignty
The VS would get an artillery piece that actually would be used to bounce a beam off of an orbiting satalite. Now, many of you are going to say: "zuh?" Here's the deal. Let's say, for argument's sake, that there's tons of VS satalites circling the planet. The artillery pieces CHARGE UP a kind of Lancer like laser shot, but instead of firing straight on, they fire up at a satalite which then bounces the beam back much like an OS only smaller. It would have devastating affect to anything caught in the blast, but the blast wouldn't be so big. Now, the longer the recharge, the longer you have to wait for the gun to cool down enough to fire again. Short recharge = rapid fire. It can actually fire faster than the TR gun, but the shots won't be nearly as effective. Most powerful of the three? Yes, if charged fully. Longest range? No, actually. Because the intensity of the beam can't reach satalites that are too far away. (B.S. explanation, but it's the best i can come up with)

Now, these guns are cool and all, but they may be difficult to implement, and there could be a lot of bitching about balance issues and what not. Bitching is bad. So Common Pool may be the answer.

Anti-Aircraft Artillery [Triple A]:
The towable AA guns will simply be deployable quad guns that fire the same shells that the Skyguard's flak cannon fires. Simple. Common Pool. Cool beans.

The Machine Gun Nest:
Deployable by any troop on the battlefield. This gun would provide excellent anti-zerging capability and also moderate defense against vehicles. More accurate since it's on a tripod, not just hand held, it would be better for hosing down units. Though, the balance is that it is immobile and that makes it Sniper food. The idea is to set 'em up and mow down as many guys as you can before you start taking too much fire. The shield in the front should protect the gunner from pretty much all fire that comes directly from the narrow forwardmost arc, but the sides and back of the gun are completely unprotected. Grenades, rockets, and sniper rifles will be the order of the day, kids. Or perhaps a well coordinated flanking mission. At any rate, the gun would be a great way to hold off zergs, and it would offer new obstacles to assaulting players. Also, the nests would offer another way to defend the Artillery/AA outposts. Spitfires will still be useful because we can't be everywhere all the time. But, the MG Nests will be good when we are there, and we CAN defend. These guns can be deployed anywhere on the map except inside base SOI's and insed Towers. Otherwise, put 'em wherever you want. They won't auto-deconstruct, but they can be destroyed and they certainly can run out of ammo. Also, they can be unpacked and placed back into a unit's inventory.

Here are thumbnails which should take you to some sketches I just put together. Once I get my art tablet working I'll go ahead and make some nice digital versions of these that will be readable

(they're thumbnails, click 'em)

oddfish · 2004-09-23, 03:23 AM

Now, why do I feel that these concepts would make good additions to PlanetSide? Simple: You see, there's a very large amount of territory that goes unused and unexplored in this game, and that's unfortunate. In real life, the entire world is the battlefield. So, why, in PlanetSide, is battle seemingly restricted to Base Caps and towers? Truthfully, it's not. Battles wage over bridges and around Warp Gates. But, to be honest, it still isn't as spread out and as interesting as it could be. Also, when all there is to do is cap bases and snag towers, it tends to get old after a while. But what if, instead of just base capping and tower hopping all night, you could go on Artillery hunts, or set up a gunnery outpost, or set up an ambush with MG Nests and such. That would open the game up soo much it's indescribable. The possibilities become endless when the location of the enemy can be just about anywhere on the map. And now, you need Mossie and Reaver pilots to do flyovers in certan grids of the map to check for artillery outposts. Now you need scouts to look for outposts and determine troop strength. You can't just Zerg anymore! You have to think and coordinate. You also need scouts to determine if an area is good to set up and outpost. You need guys with GT who can cart the weapons to and fro. This provides for open field combat and a wide range of tactics that have mostly gone unexplored in the game thus far.

All that this idea adds is versatility. It won't take anything FROM the game. Only add. And the additions will only benefit the game. The scope of the game will expand dramatically and the feeling will be much more immersive and exciting. Now, instead of knowing exactly where the enemy is, and exactly what to do: Grab a bunch of tanks, load a few galaxies. Gal drop on the CC and Zerg the Spawn room. Take out the generator.. BLAH BLAH BLAH, we've done it a thousand times over. What if, instead, you could go on a strike mission to take out an artillery position? That'd be a break from the monotony. How about going on a mission to set UP artillery? Yeah. Some outfits may even build themselves around setting up and using artillery. This whole idea just opens up a whole new palette of possibilities.

I explained CR and BR xp acquisition in a previous post.

Originally Posted by oddfish

I look at it this way. You cap the weaponry just like you hack a vehicle or console or whatever and anyone can do it (hackers just do it faster) all except for machine gun nests which don't need hacked to be used. Anyways, hacking Guns gets you CEP if you're the squad/platoon leader because obviously you put together quite an assault to be able to take over an outpost. And you get BEP if you're not in command. Hacking the guns gives you BEP or CEP, depending. And destroying enemy guns gives you BEP. Not a lot, but about the same amount you'd get for single handedly taking down a MAX unit.

Let me explain this a little better. If you or one of your squad/platoon mates destroys an Artillery/AA gun, the whole squad gets BEP and the Commander gets CEP, as per usual, except for the CEP. Also, as far as CEP is concerned, if you cap a gun, the Commander of your platoon/squad gets CEP and the rest of the squad/platoon gets BEP. CEP and BEP won't be too significant. Like I said, like single handedly killing a MAX unit, or perhaps a larger vehicle or some such. Now, how do we prevent players from fighting over who gets to hack the guns? We don't. You'd better hope your squad's faster than the other guy's, that's all. Odds are there won't be much fighting over caps considering the fact that there'll be too much action going on in the first place. But, if there is, so be it. Some people are selfish.. Oh well.

The only other concern is: BFR's. Well, BFR's should fear Arty positions just as much as Arty outposts should fear BFR's. It's equal and balanced.

That's the plan, ladies and gentleman. I hope to have some better diagrams drawn out for you as quickly as possible. Until then, this is what I got. I welcome your input, so give me any advice you see fit.

~oddfish

Phaden · 2004-09-23, 01:05 PM

Very cool. i like the idea of utilizing more of the open areas in PS. I was thinking about how sad it is about that the other day.

I love the idea of arty and AA setups that are forced not to be in the main SOI. Very cool idea to get people fighting everythwere. I alslo think the arty is really cool. I think it would actually be better if only a dead on hit from the biggest would cause instagib. It should have radius style damage degradation. This would make aiming still key, and bring the guided arty back into play.

Baneblade · 2004-09-23, 01:23 PM

Maybe the XP from a base cap shouldn't be related to the squad being in the SOI. Or have a second bigger SOI that is only used the determine XP shares.

Or could enlarge current SOIs to like double their area.

EarlyDawn · 2004-09-23, 02:38 PM

That's basically what Hayoo is suggesting. He also wants to be able to tie emplacements into the command and communications system.

Good drawings though.

Hayoo · 2004-09-23, 04:22 PM

Nice drawings, oddfish.

That's essentially what I've been wanting for Planetside as well, along with the ability for troops to 'dig-in' with deployable cover. I'd recommend reposting your sketches and details in a new topic, otherwise I fear my thread will unfairly bury them because I'm posting new stuff all the time. You can also post on idealab's wishlist forum. That should increase your exposure for feedback some.

Incompetent · 2004-09-23, 04:33 PM

Need anti-tank guns odd, MGs are meat without some way to kill tanks. Also, imho it's stupid to disallow placement of deployables within friendly SOIs. Defenders get shafted as is, if your going to add in defensive deployables you might as well let defenders use them. Defense in depth is it's own reward (in anything but planetside, where pilots are also fucking paratroopers and trying to hold strategic terrain is useless because of them.)