Tank drivers acting as gunners in PS2 - Page 32

Wargrim · 2012-03-07, 06:05 PM

I really dont get how people think you cant drive a tank and aim at the same time. I do it all the time.

Common reasons to stop and shoot are:
bumpy terrain
using cover
getting repairs while shooting
mines suspected ahead
Wouldnt a dedicated driver stop too in the same situations?

My experience with the driver =/= gunner system in PS1 was horrible. I only played some weeks / month during the Reserves program, but i often used a Vanguard. The very few occasions where i got a real good gunner or driver as a partner were really great, i will give you that. But i assume that most of you long - term PS1 - players have Outfits, or at least fixed partners to play with. Back then, i did not. And believe me, being stuck in a tank with a random stranger, without voicechat, was soooo bad. Either i drove, and my gunner would shoot the main gun at airplanes, look backwards, ignore a hostile BFR 30 meters away, and generally not hit anything, or i gunned, and my driver would run into minefields, park me before a tree so i couldnt shoot at anything, go cross country, charge anti tank infantry, and generally not go where i would have wanted to go. Having to rely on random public players was a pain. So much in fact, that i either used a Lightning, or ended up using the Vanguard as some kind of self propelled artillery piece:

Lock it, drive to the battle, find a nice hill slope with los to the fight, exit, enter gunner seat, fire at enemies until the battle moves or i die. If the battle moves on and i still live, repeat the procedure. I have crossed whole continents that way.

If the only choice would be a gunner =/= driver system, or a gunnner = driver system, ill take the second one any day.

However, why not just make it toggleable? Cant really be that hard, and would allow both playstyles.

Figment · 2012-03-07, 06:18 PM

Wargrim, consider these things:

1. You apparently chose not to join an outfit.
2. It's an incentive to both make friends you play with on a regular basis and bring buddies into the game you can trust.
3. You can make (like I did) some basic instructions to provide your gunners with, before heading into battles. It greatly enhances their performance if they know what my voice macros entailed and they listened to it.
4. Proxy voice will be standard instead of chat in PS2 (apparently?).

As an example of 3. I told people to not open fire until within certain range (clear, reliable shot), or detected and fired upon. I told people to focus on finishin of targets first. As I usualy drove Thundies, I had to coordinate with two people. Of course you have the occassional problems, but indeed, that's what outfitmembers and TS are for.

Effectively you are saying what we all say is bad for social cohesion and balance: you will prefer to go solo and have less incentive to play with regular friends and only will take in random buddies for secondary gun as it's slightly better than driving it continuously alone, but you would not wait for someone to get in (note: nor even use a buddy in another tank covering you).

How does that promote teamplay? :/

We don't think you can't, but it does hinder your situational awareness. I get very high winratios in World of Tanks. Most of the twats in there are anti-social players. Those that aren't have little means to create a community other than spam recruitment of randoms thanks to Wargaming's policy of protecting loners in random battles. It lead to a highly segregated and nationalist community in the EU version of the game. Tbh, from my perspective it's a complete social failure and something that should not occur in PS2, because the social aspect was one of the best things about PS's community.

Wargrim · 2012-03-07, 06:34 PM

It is hard for me to really judge how it will play out in PS2 to be honest, but in BFBC2, when playing with my friends, we were usually rocking with tanks in a way that one dude did the tanking, and ~3 engineers with rockets were keeping him alive. Most maps did not offer enough tanks/space for larger groups of tanks going together. No separate driver and gunner here, bit still a type of teamwork. I would also see Lightning raids and Vanguard pushes back in PS1 as some kind of teamwork, though more the Zerg kind, not the planned and coordinated kind.

The thing is, you dont always have the time or wish to join a clan or outfit. Or have the friends that want to play the same game. Why shouldnt you be able to use a ES tank regardless? Is the teamwork between 2 friends in 2 tanks less worthy than 2 friends in one tank?

I see teamwork as something that enhances the effectiveness of a group of player in a natural way. Requiring two players for basic operation of a tank seems like an artificial restriction to me, after all we do not include a loader or radio operator either, because we know it wouldnt be fun for those persons.

Nowadays i got voicechat ready, and have regular gaming friends that i hope will follow me to PS2, so for me, it would be no issue anymore. But i am pretty sure there are people today that will have the very same problem i had back then in PS1. Having to rely on a pubbie for basic tasks is often frustrating.

BorisBlade · 2012-03-07, 06:38 PM

BTW, you can switch gunner seats without getting out, so the idea that you will be fodder for aircraft if you dont have a second gunner is wrong. You get uber armor, uber firepower and plenty of cover for air or infantry at a simple button press to switch seats. Letting you switch seats without gettin out is flat out terrible, just adds insult to the injury of drivers gunning a main tank.

This is turning into a cheaply made, lame, and simplistic fps compared to what it could be, leaving all the great aspects out that PS1 pioneered and that made it awesome is a big mistake and just leaves you with a larger player count clone of the million other fps games out there. I seriously hope beta brings about a good vehicle revamp and fixes these glaring problems.

Khellendros · 2012-03-07, 07:34 PM

From the gameplay videos, it seems pretty clear that tank battles are going to be relatively static because most people cannot drive and gun at the same time effectively.

I really think PS1 had the better model for tank fights. *sigh*

Zonna · 2012-03-07, 07:40 PM

unless its an option per the driver, i do not like this at all. having to relie on another made them less overpowered, u could always tell a good tank crew from a lesser one!
driving n shooting at same time=no fun!!! i'd rather relie on a noob as my main gunner so i could make sure i kept my tank alive, rather than have to "try" n do both myself! driver as gunner also=reaver bait!

noxious · 2012-03-07, 08:05 PM

I always loved driving the Magrider, dancing around the battlefield and dodging incoming fire with dogtag in my gunner seat, ripping everything we came across to shreds.

I'm rather good with the tanks in the Battlefield series so I suspect that it'll be easy enough to own people solo with the PS2 tanks, but the camaraderie of the two-man tank crews from Planetside will definitely be missed.

krnasaur · 2012-03-07, 08:08 PM

I skipped most of the previous 32 pages' posts so if has been discussed to death already, please excuse me.

The only problem with the driver controlling the main gun for me is the fact that instead of it taking 2 people to get an operational tank, it only takes 1, thus basically doubling the number of tanks you can man with an X number of people, to compensate that either they have to be weaker (lightning status) or the AV weapons need to be buffed so that the flood of extra tanks doesn't spiral out of control and this doesn't turn into world of tanks 2

VioletZero · 2012-03-07, 08:08 PM

I really hope that tanks have an accuracy rating that blooms considerably when moving. So we don't have a bunch of tanks zipping around trying to dodge each other. :x

Aurmanite · 2012-03-07, 08:10 PM

Originally Posted by VioletZero

I really hope that tanks have an accuracy rating that blooms considerably when moving. So we don't have a bunch of tanks zipping around trying to dodge each other. :x

Dude...no.

Zipping around trying to dodge each other is half the game in Planetside. A good driver makes a huge difference.

VioletZero · 2012-03-07, 08:13 PM

But it makes the game require considerably less skill and makes the game have better depth of tact.

Accessible with something to offer long time fans. Win win.

Aurmanite · 2012-03-07, 08:29 PM

Originally Posted by VioletZero

But it makes the game require considerably less skill and makes the game have better depth of tact.

Accessible with something to offer long time fans. Win win.

You're saying that sitting still and firing at stationary targets requires more skill? Brings about a higher depth of gameplay?

I know you haven't played Planetside...have you ever played any other shooter?

Whalenator · 2012-03-07, 08:41 PM

Originally Posted by VioletZero

But it makes the game require considerably less skill and makes the game have better depth of tact.

Accessible with something to offer long time fans. Win win.

It also speeds up the pace of the game, reduces player awareness and teamwork, justifies tanks being much weaker and also is fucking stupid.

VioletZero · 2012-03-07, 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by Whalenator

It also speeds up the pace of the game, reduces player awareness and teamwork, justifies tanks being much weaker and also is fucking stupid.

How does accuracy bloom in tanks do ANY of that?

Accuracy bloom when moving or rotating the turret slows down the game. Not speed it up.

Reduces player awareness? You need to have a good game sense to know where you need to be aiming.

Reduces teamwork? How?

Justifies tanks being much weaker? This is a nerf...

And is ****ing stupid how?

Originally Posted by Aurmanite

You're saying that sitting still and firing at stationary targets requires more skill? Brings about a higher depth of gameplay?

I know you haven't played Planetside...have you ever played any other shooter?

I said it takes LESS skill. But greater planning and organization.

I've played World of Tanks and that's what they did. Had a pretty punishing accuracy system if you were moving. And the game was better off for it.

Aurmanite · 2012-03-07, 08:51 PM

Originally Posted by VioletZero

How does accuracy bloom in tanks do ANY of that?

I said it takes LESS skill. But greater planning and organization.

I've played World of Tanks and that's what they did. Had a pretty punishing accuracy system if you were moving. And the game was better off for it.

Man, if I trusted you I would let you play on my buddies Planetside account. You need to see how an MMOFPS actually plays out.