Why K:D, Deaths, streaks and other stats are bad, and how PS2 can evolve the genre - Page 35

Accuser · 2012-07-24, 07:59 AM

Originally Posted by Dart

Seriously guys, I can't put this any more plainly; stats are in the game. Get over it.

Really? Will "Revives Per Death" be prominently displayed at the top of the stats page? How about Captures Per Death? Or Vehicle Destructions Per Death? Or "Anything that actually contributes directly to teamplay" Per Death?

No?

Only Kills Per Death?
Maybe that's the point

BlazingSun · 2012-07-24, 08:01 AM

Originally Posted by MrKWalmsley

Here's another person who seems to be strawmanning! Through dishonesty or through the fact they didn't even read! Hardly anyone here is saying that we should remove stats, in fact most of us (INCLUDING THE OP) are discussing WHICH stats should be the most prominent. Once again, read the post or don't bother giving us you're misguided opinion. The bane of this world is people so arrogant they think that they should just go ahead and comment with knowledgeable authority on a subject they didn't even bother to listen to.

Let me respond to this by quoting the OP.

Originally Posted by Malorn

Move PS2 forward. Get rid of deaths as a stat. Get rid of kill streaks.

For all I care, put your 'score' stat in a dominant position, but out of all the things that might change in beta, the kills and deaths stats are most likely here to stay.

Katanauk · 2012-07-24, 08:16 AM

I still fail to understand why stats in game is a bad thing? You can pretend they're not there, can you not? As for prominence, prominence of stats is entirely down to the individual.

Example, is someone who plays Planetside as a full on support guy (I know a few, they love it) gonna pay attention to their K/D? Nope. They'll look at their assists. Is someone that looks for shotgun 1v1s gonna look at their assists? Probably not, they'll go to kills with shotguns . . .

Basically . . . If a positive K/D ratio isn't important to you, you can play without it in mind.

Besides, someone mentioned self preservation, even without K/D, levels of self preservation will directly reflect the player, not whether the game has K/D or not. Some will "die for the empire" some will choose not to "die for the empire".

Oh, and slightly off topic . . . for the TL;DR mob: Don't reply to it then. Hate it when people have the audacity to argue against a post all the while saying "TL;DR".

MrKWalmsley · 2012-07-24, 08:20 AM

Originally Posted by BlazingSun

Let me respond to this by quoting the OP.

For all I care, put your 'score' stat in a dominant position, but out of all the things that might change in beta, the kills and deaths stats are most likely here to stay.

That is the removal of one specific stat, most of the people arguing against this idea seem to think that he is arguing from the total removal of stats (including the person I responded to, otherwise they would have specified like you did), that does not include you btw, I recognise you actually understand the OP's point and genuinely disagree with it.

Take for example the guy above this comment, he seems to think that the OP, or at least a noticeable amount of people think that "stats in game is a bad thing", which is counter to the actual point of this thread which is to maintain stats, just changing around which ones there are.

Artimus · 2012-07-24, 08:39 AM

Op: maybe they just wanted to fill the game with as much data as they could like they have been saying, personally I dont give a shit about any of my stats I just enjoy the game. thats how its been in every shooter I've ever played, I am sure most would agree.

Also I don't see how anyone elses stats will effect how you will perform. If you don't care for them then don't pay attention to them.

Dart · 2012-07-24, 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by MrKWalmsley

Here's another person who seems to be strawmanning! Through dishonesty or through the fact they didn't even read! Hardly anyone here is saying that we should remove stats, in fact most of us (INCLUDING THE OP) are discussing WHICH stats should be the most prominent. Once again, read the post or don't bother giving us you're misguided opinion. The bane of this world is people so arrogant they think that they should just go ahead and comment with knowledgeable authority on a subject they didn't even bother to listen to.

I'm not strawmanning my friend, I'm trying to help you guys. This one is over. I do have pretty specific knowledge of this particular issue - the NDA would obviously prohibit me from showing you the screen to which I'm referring but rest assured both K : D and kill streak notifications are in game.

This debate is no longer useful to the development of PS2 - it is strictly an ideological discussion, so who is really strawmanning here?

Flaropri · 2012-07-24, 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by Accuser

Really? Will "Revives Per Death" be prominently displayed at the top of the stats page? How about Captures Per Death? Or Vehicle Destructions Per Death? Or "Anything that actually contributes directly to teamplay" Per Death?

No?

Only Kills Per Death?
Maybe that's the point

If it's a problem of display I'm rather confident that it can be changed, whether through optional customization, change to default stat displays, or something along those lines.

I disagree with the idea that KDR is a wholly "selfish" stat as Malorn has said, and that it can't indicate teamplay (it's neutral in my view), just as I think that Score is even less useful. However, not having Assists (at the very least) right there along with K/D is pretty bad in a game that supports dedicated support play. Whether KDR is de-emphasized or not Assists should be next to it for ease of reference.

That said, there is still little (public at least) information about stat tracking, and how much data will go out to, for example, programmers who want to make their own apps and websites aside from the official one(s). There is also plenty of time to provide feedback on improving the official website content and what stats are important to display. General Accuracy for example is not very important outside of specific weapons while Assist data gives better general information. That's one way to drastically improve those pages with minimal changes to the layout.

Hamma · 2012-07-24, 09:27 AM

As much as I agree with Malorn on this issue (I 100% agree btw) Dart is right, this is something that is here to stay and I don't see it changing. I think it would be a good topic for AGN though we can talk it out while the Devs are tuned in.

MrKWalmsley · 2012-07-24, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by Dart

I'm not strawmanning my friend, I'm trying to help you guys. This one is over. I do have pretty specific knowledge of this particular issue - the NDA would obviously prohibit me from showing you the screen to which I'm referring but rest assured both K : D and kill streak notifications are in game.

This debate is no longer useful to the development of PS2 - it is strictly an ideological discussion, so who is really strawmanning here?

I did not say that you hadn't had specific knowledge of whether or not there is K : D stat's in the game, now that is strawmanning! I said you did not have knowledge on the original post since your entire reply was not specific, and only said stats as a general term, which runs counter to the original post (i.e. you did not have knowledge of the ACTUAL point you were responding to, not that you did not have knowledge to the status of stats in game).

Also you seem to think that just because something is in-game we shouldn't bother to ask it to be changed even if it is a benefit to the game? Because that's just it, we are not asking for the removal of the entire stat system, only asking what stat should be prioritised! What is so hard to understand about that?

EisenKreutzer · 2012-07-24, 09:39 AM

The Straw Man Argument, for anyone whos interested in learning what it really is.

Emperor Newt · 2012-07-24, 09:44 AM

Originally Posted by Dart

I'm not strawmanning my friend, I'm trying to help you guys. This one is over. I do have pretty specific knowledge of this particular issue - the NDA would obviously prohibit me from showing you the screen to which I'm referring but rest assured both K : D and kill streak notifications are in game.

This debate is no longer useful to the development of PS2 - it is strictly an ideological discussion, so who is really strawmanning here?

Ah, okay. Didn't know the community has to ask you what to discuss, when to discuss and how long to discuss. Good to know.
Someone should put that into the FAQ asap.

MrKWalmsley · 2012-07-24, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by EisenKreutzer

The Straw Man Argument, for anyone whos interested in learning what it really is.

Thank you, and since he was attacking the position which I did not hold (the position that he is not authorised to speak about what is already ingame) and a position the OP did not hold (by making it seem as though he was talking about all stats, rather than being honest and specify what stats he is talking about) I'd say I used the word properly, based on that definition.

Dart · 2012-07-24, 10:06 AM

Look guys, without breaking the NDA there is only so much we can say here but Hamma is right, you aren't going to win this one. Rail against me if you like but you're just shooting the messenger. This discussion had nothing to do with PS2 development any more but if none of you have anything better to do today than discuss it; more power to you! Enjoy the ideological debate. Just expect to be confronted by a number of stats, including k/d when you receive your beta invites.

MrKWalmsley · 2012-07-24, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by Dart

Look guys, without breaking the NDA there is only so much we can say here but Hamma is right, you aren't going to win this one. Rail against me if you like but you're just shooting the messenger. This discussion had nothing to do with PS2 development any more but if none of you have anything better to do today than discuss it; more power to you! Enjoy the ideological debate. Just expect to be confronted by a number of stats, including k/d when you receive your beta invites.

That's right people! Once the game launches there is no point making suggestions to make the game better! Absolutely none. Don't bother pointing out if something is overpowered, even if there are a majority who agree with you, because once something is in-game, it cannot be tweaked.

Apparently changing something which could easily effect player behaviour and thus making gameplay to be more team oriented has absolutely nothing to do with developing PS2, and is instead an ideological debate (despite the fact that if you can bring ANY field into this, it would be psychology, nothing here is based on ideologies, once again, know what you are talking about before posting in future).

That's right people, as soon as something is in game no matter how bad or unbalanced it is, you cannot even propose a slight change to it, let alone the removal of it! Because apparently the dev's won't even try, even if it is only a small tweak in the UI, in what order something is displayed, or removing something from display. Better shut down the ideas vault, lest we make it seem that we think that the game isn't absolutely perfect in every way in either it's current or future forms!

Mepper · 2012-07-24, 10:21 AM

This is beta. Everything is WIP and subject to change. That is the whole meaning of it.

I would really love to see at least the option to not track my deaths.

With k/d tracked there will always be a little voice in your head telling you to be carefull, egoistic, and only focus on killing.

If someone would be constantly healing and reviving teammates in a firefight he helps his team a lot. But a focus on k/d discourages you to do so. That is just bad.