IMO KillCam killing the Game

[Erendil]

Here's an interesting thought.... Assuming OSes work similarly to how they do in PS1... Let's say you're a cloaker who, during a base defense, managed to get outside unseen and you call down an OS that kills 10-20 enemies. Should those enemies now get a killcam giving away your position?

And I think this has already been mentioned but it merits a repeat. How would the killcam work for mine kills? What if the person who laid the mines is on a different part of the cont? Or on a different cont altogether?


EDIT: Oh, and before I forget: Look everyone! A *****!

[DayOne]

What if it just shows you being killed from a different angle? even if it was very cinematic it would be annoying as hell but it's the only way, IMO, that a kill cam would be close to not terrible.

[xSlideShow]

I'm all for kill cam. No problem with it imo, just another tool in the arsenal on the bright side of kill cam you'll know if you got owned or if he was hacking.

Also I don't see a problem with it, immersion BS aside... It's not like it's impossible to skip kill cam... Oh no you have to watch it. Instead of watching your respawn timer...

All they have to do is set it up so not everyone has it or you the player can shut it off. Maybe an implant that turns kill cam off for you.

I've pretty much already given my input on this and I am pretty much in the same spot I was with it. I know unless I die in 1 hit where the shot came from, so I don't need kill cam, nor do I use it. (Hell 50% of the time even if it's one shot you still know).

If anything I would prefer for the player to have to get an implant that shows the enemy the kill cam. This was one of the things Higby suggested the might to do balance it. It really is a great teaching tool and players can learn a lot from kill cam.

[DayOne]

Originally Posted by xSlideShow

I'm all for kill cam. No problem with it imo, just another tool in the arsenal on the bright side of kill cam you'll know if you got owned or if he was hacking.

Also I don't see a problem with it, immersion BS aside... It's not like it's impossible to skip kill cam... Oh no you have to watch it. Instead of watching your respawn timer...

All they have to do is set it up so not everyone has it or you the player can shut it off. Maybe an implant that turns kill cam off for you.

I've pretty much already given my input on this and I am pretty much in the same spot I was with it. I know unless I die in 1 hit where the shot came from, so I don't need kill cam, nor do I use it. (Hell 50% of the time even if it's one shot you still know).

If anything I would prefer for the player to have to get an implant that shows the enemy the kill cam. This was one of the things Higby suggested the might to do balance it. It really is a great teaching tool and players can learn a lot from kill cam.

But if you are trying to be at all stealthy (a big part of the game) it ruins it. Then you get that guy you killed and his squad from vent on you because they know you are on your own due to the kill cam.

If that isn't BS I don't know what is.

[xSlideShow]

Originally Posted by DayOne

But if you are trying to be at all stealthy (a big part of the game) it ruins it. Then you get that guy you killed and his squad from vent on you because they know you are on your own due to the kill cam.

If that isn't BS I don't know what is.

Then you run away, or you were gonna die anyway cause you gave up your position. There is a reason why we don't just shoot the first guy we see. Kill cam will not quicken your death, that scenario is no different from what would happen to him anyway. Sun Tzu says, do not engage an enemy unless the engagement is in your favor. If you are by yourself attacking a squad is not in your favor even if you try to kill one dude.

Even without killl they are still going to kill you.

IMO the only people Kill cams ruin any game for are campers. They are the only ones who it really effects. Anyone else it's just whining, cause the kill cam didn't give them any information they wouldn't have known already. It doesn't matter that they know your exact location when you kill them cause your going to move anyway.

The devs do it right no one can complain about it IMO. I'm sure some people will find a way. Kill cams are for learning and showing off they don't really assist in spotting. The game gives enough assistants with that already.

[DayOne]

Originally Posted by xSlideShow

IMO the only people Kill cams ruin any game for are campers.

And defenders who choose to stay in one spot because they can easily defend an area and not be killed by running around in the open.

[xSlideShow]

Originally Posted by DayOne

And defenders who choose to stay in one spot because they can easily defend an area and not be killed by running around in the open.

AKA Campers btw, it doesn't even ruin the game for them!

The enemy are already going to know where those guys are. After the first shot your position is compromised, they will see you. This is without kill cam.

If your position is as defensible as it should be. (Meaning your gonna be fine unless you get flanked but that shouldn't be a problem cause you planned for that! So the only way for you to die is for them to hit you with big numbers). Stealth only means anything for the first 3 seconds of an engagement. (I fluffed the number I don't actually know how long, doesn't really matter it's that long or less). After that it's all communication and positioning. Along with the ability to perform but that's actually less of a requirement than positioning and communication.

Honestly the only thing I hate about kill cam and I didn't even know this happened until Black Ops. Is when I'm about to get my killstreak and then I die from behind... But wait... I looked there... Oh, it's ok that guy just respawned, right where you were, when you turned around.

[Knightwyvern]

Ok, I'm going to come out and say this. Kind of telling, kind of predicting.

PS2 is not CoD or BF or Tribes, etc. It's not a lobby based, match based shooter. The maps are huge, and persistent. There are MANY more players in general per fight, it is much larger in scale and slower in pace. In those aforementioned games, sitting still and hiding = camping (kinda.) in PS2, sitting still and hiding = legitimate, useful, worthwhile tactic in some situations. Kind of like it is in real life. A bad implementation could damage that tactic, and we don't want that.

[xSlideShow]

Originally Posted by Knightwyvern

Ok, I'm going to come out and say this. Kind of telling, kind of predicting.

PS2 is not CoD or BF or Tribes, etc. It's not a lobby based, match based shooter. The maps are huge, and persistent. There are MANY more players in general per fight, it is much larger in scale and slower in pace. In those aforementioned games, sitting still and hiding = camping (kinda.) in PS2, sitting still and hiding = legitimate, useful, worthwhile tactic in some situations. Kind of like it is in real life. A bad implementation could damage that tactic, and we don't want that.

It's still camping, it's a legitimate tactic: stop, sit, and listen. Pretty sure they teach you that one. Not the point though, the point is that kill cam does not in anyway damage that tactic. If anything it you can abuse it more. Look at CoD, not for similar gameplay saying this is what will happen but tactics are pretty much the same no matter what game you play.

One of my favorite things to do is to kill some one then set a trap in the same area to get 2 kills off the same guy, this is done by placing a claymore mine whatever.

Again not the point, cause for kill cam to work. One of the players have to die. Almost every engagement involves your positioning being compromised no matter what. Kill cam will not change that, you will still give away your position when you shoot at the enemy this is basic you already know before you shoot your gun that guy is going to turn around and try to spot you before he dies. You already know he is going to relay that he got shot to his squad before he dies. You already know what's about to happen. It's the same situation with or without a kill cam. Kill cam only effects 1v1 engagements, if you can say it even effects that.

[Knightwyvern]

Originally Posted by xSlideShow

It's still camping, it's a legitimate tactic: stop, sit, and listen. Pretty sure they teach you that one. Not the point though, the point is that kill cam does not in anyway damage that tactic. If anything it you can abuse it more. Look at CoD, not for similar gameplay saying this is what will happen but tactics are pretty much the same no matter what game you play.

One of my favorite things to do is to kill some one then set a trap in the same area to get 2 kills off the same guy, this is done by placing a claymore mine whatever.

Again not the point, cause for kill cam to work. One of the players have to die. Almost every engagement involves your positioning being compromised no matter what. Kill cam will not change that, you will still give away your position when you shoot at the enemy this is basic you already know before you shoot your gun that guy is going to turn around and try to spot you before he dies. You already know he is going to relay that he got shot to his squad before he dies. You already know what's about to happen. It's the same situation with or without a kill cam. Kill cam only effects 1v1 engagements, if you can say it even effects that.

There's a big difference between having a general idea or general direction in mind, and knowing specifically where someone is. This is more true the farther away your attacker is, a.k.a marksmen or snipers.

Some implementations wouldn't really do much harm, like just showing your death from a third person view at a slightly different angle. But others, such as pointing directly at your attacker or showing the kill from their point of view would be considerably worse.

[xSlideShow]

Originally Posted by Knightwyvern

There's a big difference between having a general idea or general direction in mind, and knowing specifically where someone is. This is more true the farther away your attacker is, a.k.a marksmen or snipers.

Some implementations wouldn't really do much harm, like just showing your death from a third person view at a slightly different angle. But others, such as pointing directly at your attacker or showing the kill from their point of view would be considerably worse.

However there is tracer fire so you can spot can follow the magic dotted line to your enemy. Not to mention mussel flash, your reticule lights up in a lot games, their name appears over their head etc. Your screen flashes red with directional markers. You don't need kill cam to spot an enemy and relay it to your friends. Kill cam is just to help the noobs learn the tricks. A veteran player will not use it in 95% of their situations.

Friendlies will be far more valuable, your gonna have to die and on top of that your probably gonna have to tap so your medic can't res you so you better have squad spawning up. There is a bunch of different things the devs can do to not only make it balance and not effect your immersion. Just kill cam in CoD is not OP in anyway.

If you guys cannot give one really good reason to take away a tool for new players. It's not kill cam that will kill the game it's you people.

[Knightwyvern]

Originally Posted by xSlideShow

However there is tracer fire so you can spot can follow the magic dotted line to your enemy. Not to mention mussel flash, your reticule lights up in a lot games, their name appears over their head etc. Your screen flashes red with directional markers. You don't need kill cam to spot an enemy and relay it to your friends. Kill cam is just to help the noobs learn the tricks. A veteran player will not use it in 95% of their situations.

Friendlies will be far more valuable, your gonna have to die and on top of that your probably gonna have to tap so your medic can't res you so you better have squad spawning up. There is a bunch of different things the devs can do to not only make it balance and not effect your immersion. Just kill cam in CoD is not OP in anyway.

If you guys cannot give one really good reason to take away a tool for new players. It's not kill cam that will kill the game it's you people.

You're arguing against yourself. If it's so easy, as you say, to spot enemies without the kill cam then why do even new players need a kill cam? The point is that yes, it's already kind of easy so let's not make it SUPER easy. That's boring.

Not sure what you mean about friendlies being more valuable, really. The rest of your middle paragraph is basically saying that kill cams aren't useful; so why have them? That defeats the purpose of them being a learning tool for new players.

[xSlideShow]

Originally Posted by Knightwyvern

You're arguing against yourself. If it's so easy, as you say, to spot enemies without the kill cam then why do even new players need a kill cam? The point is that yes, it's already kind of easy so let's not make it SUPER easy. That's boring.

Not sure what you mean about friendlies being more valuable, really. The rest of your middle paragraph is basically saying that kill cams aren't useful; so why have them? That defeats the purpose of them being a learning tool for new players.

No I'm not. I'm saying it allows a new player to see what already experienced players are doing. The reason you guys are saying it's op is because you can use it the to spot enemies the only reason it's OP.

It gives noobs a huge scope of information. It shows how to move what other players run on their weapons what perks (in CoD). Tricks and Tactics you'd have to otherwise talk to other players or have some one let you in on the scoop. Things a lot noob don't have privy to.

[Knightwyvern]

Originally Posted by xSlideShow

No I'm not. I'm saying it allows a new player to see what already experienced players are doing. The reason you guys are saying it's op is because you can use it the to spot enemies the only reason it's OP.

It gives noobs a huge scope of information. It shows how to move what other players run on their weapons what perks (in CoD). Tricks and Tactics you'd have to otherwise talk to other players or have some one let you in on the scoop. Things a lot noob don't have privy to.

Well, given that there is in game chat, most likely in game Vivox voice chat, outfits, and the fact that PS2 is an "MMO"FPS, and one without any NPCs to boot, points to the fact that the devs are hoping that players will talk to each other. Giving people tools specifically so they don't have to talk and interact with other players is quite counterproductive to the overall social design.

"OP because you can use it to spot enemies the only reason it's OP." Um, well in my opinion such a "tacked on" mechanic as kill cams allowing players to spot their enemies when they normally wouldn't be able to, would be disappointing and frustrating for me.

[xSlideShow]

Originally Posted by Knightwyvern

Well, given that there is in game chat, most likely in game Vivox voice chat, outfits, and the fact that PS2 is an "MMO"FPS, and one without any NPCs to boot, points to the fact that the devs are hoping that players will talk to each other. Giving people tools specifically so they don't have to talk and interact with other players is quite counterproductive to the overall social design.

Forced social behavior turns some people off to MMO's. This allows casual FPS players to integrate into the game at their own pace.

Originally Posted by Knightwyvern

"OP because you can use it to spot enemies the only reason it's OP." Um, well in my opinion such a "tacked on" mechanic as kill cams allowing players to spot their enemies when they normally wouldn't be able to, would be disappointing and frustrating for me.

I was making the point it's not OP and you guys are still trying to get rid of it. I was already showing you that all of the information kill cam gives you is already available to you. So only a new player would need it.

It's a great learning tool and the devs seems like they would be willing to work with us on how to get to the kill cams. So everyone can agree on it so it's not annoying or easily exploitable. There is a lot of ways kill cams can work.