Gun Control

[MrVicchio]

Originally Posted by Figment

Helwyr, you aren't using any arguments, high with the amount of text you write is quite an accomplishment. You are just spouting opinions, threats on what would happen and call them fact even though records and statistics everywhere disagree with you. The South in the USA was a police state thanks to the constitution of the USA. Don't believe me? Ask your fellow African-Americans ancestors. That constitution was written and amended to keep them under control by the founding fathers and to keep all the colonies on board.

Do you ever talk about that? No, you believe you know the motivations of the founding fathers, yet you do not learn about them yourself: you only parrot ht you have been taught. For the record, we don't get so indoctrinated with patriotism like you Americans. We don't have flags everywhere. We don't sing the national anthem at every ball games. Or each day in school. We arn't per definition loyal to any of two political parties like rabid fanboys. Over 47% of our populace isn't even religious.

People in your country on the other hand... And you aren't an exception, you are extremely dogmatic.

You don't back up anything, at all. Yet you continuously claim people don't know what they are talking about without demonstrating why. You continuously claim to know that everything is bad in Europe yet here the Europeans are all in disagreement with you. Why the fuck should we listen to you to tell us we have it so bad here if police violence and criminal violence in your country is among the worst in the world?

You continuously make a fool out of yourself tbh.

LOL? Someone's been listening to Jamie Foxx too much. The Constitution was written to control slavery? Son the Constitution was written at a time when blacks were savages not considered human by most people and the founders had the audacity to set in place the end of Slavery because most of them were far wiser then their contemporaries.

[Crator]

Blacks weren't considered savages. It was mainly due to greed of the African race, who sold their own people as slaves to Americans.

[ChipMHazard]

Originally Posted by Helwyr

We can already watch Piers Morgan on CNN, we don't need you guys. At least you ask good questions on FNO.

Oh but you do, you really do. You need people in your life who do not share your views on certain issues, to ask/make questions/statements that you don't want asked/made. In other words, in order for there to be a debate there needs to be someone who has taken up a contrary position to your own. And thank you

[Helwyr]

Came across a video of great speech at a small pro 2nd amendment rally, that I thought I'd share.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=05AHr89rnTA

Originally Posted by Figment

You continuously make a fool out of yourself tbh.

Says the guy that proved himself a fool with his response to photo of a particular shooting incident that I bet he has still yet to bother figuring out any factual details. I knew Figment had an axe to grind, but didn't expect him to so blindly walk into that one, but when you're that closed minded I guess that's what happens. The comments about clips and shells was of course just bonus laughs.

[ChipMHazard]

Now who is the one trolling, eh?
At this point I don't see much reason to allow this thread to continue, if all we're going to be doing is insult each other.

[Helwyr]

Originally Posted by ChipMHazard

At this point I don't see much reason to allow this thread to continue, if all we're going to be doing is insult each other.

As I stated a number of pages back this discussion cannot lead anywhere constructive. The beliefs and values underlying the two sides seem devoid of virtually any common ground. I've seen little to no desire from anyone to really hear and understand what the other camp has to say. I think I'm the only one that's even asked for info, but Figment never did PM me any Dutch media covering the gun debate. I doubt you or he watched any of the videos I linked.

Yes it's true I posted a photo of gun violence without posting the details surrounding it intentionally to elicit a foolish response from you guys, and Figment grabbed onto the bait like fish driven mad with hunger. You may call that trolling, but I say it proved my point that your side is not interested in facts or the truth. I bet at the time of reading this sentence you still didn't know that the shooters were agents of government in the form of the LAPD and the victims where an innocent mother and daughter delivering news papers.

So, by all means lock the thread as sadly the only exchange that actually occurs is insults, everything else hits a brick wall of self imposed ignorance.

[Baneblade]

Originally Posted by Figment

That constitution was written and amended to keep them under control by the founding fathers and to keep all the colonies on board.

[Figment]

Originally Posted by MrVicchio

LOL? Someone's been listening to Jamie Foxx too much.

Who?

The Constitution was written to control slavery? Son the Constitution was written at a time when blacks were savages not considered human by most people and the founders had the audacity to set in place the end of Slavery because most of them were far wiser then their contemporaries.

Son, they held slaves themselves.

If they wanted to abolish it and end slavery, they'd set the example and set them free.



Do note I said it was amended to protect slavery for the southern states, who would otherwise not have recognised the constitution. (Note, just realised the word "then" should have been in the line Baneblade quoted me on, between written and amended).

[Figment]

Helwyr, when you've learned dutch I'll PM you some. Not sure if you can comprehend this, but "we don't actually write or speak english in our press", we subtitle, yes. But the narratives are in dutch. It's not like you could understand that.


What the hell are you going to do with any link I provide you with? Babbelfish it? Don't be an idiot and pretend I refused to give you any. I'm not going waste time to provide you with sources you can't use and thus won't read or comprehend anyway!


I don't care what the context of that image is. And I don't think you understand I DID NOT take the bait. I asked you a couple very simple questions, which you haven't answered: the most important one, what gun would have protected the occupants? And this one is now followed up by several others:

1. Why do you think a mom would have had a shoot out with cops?
2. Why would you ever assume having a gun would have given her a chance to have won?
3. Why do you consider police violence to be part of a governmental conspiracy rather than an incident? (And yes, strings of independent incidents occur, this doesn't make it policy, accepted or wanted - ie. this has nothing to do with tyranny).
4. Why do you think cops in the USA are so damn triggerhappy? (hint: might they expect criminals and suspects to have concealed weapons, making them more prone to pre-emptive aggression in decapacitating someone as a form of self-defense? Kinda like how US military has a policy at checkpoints to fire at vehicles that don't obey their orders to stop in fear of suicide attacks?)
5. Why didn't they follow protocol, or did the woman not follow any police orders to prevent violence?
6. Would you presume we'd say government officials aren't humans? (Thus not prone to stress, mistakes, accidents, abusive violence, etc. nor to be held responsible?)


You think you made a point that we always presume it's gun violence from non-government sources and yes of course it'll be the first thing on your mind. But as far as I know we HAVE NEVER CLAIMED that government employees aren't capable of misplaced violence, murder or whatever else. So you haven't really made any point with it. Don't flatter yourself so much.

[Figment]

Originally Posted by Crator

Blacks weren't considered savages. It was mainly due to greed of the African race, who sold their own people as slaves to Americans.

Technically they sold them to us, the Spanish, English, French and the Portuguese, who then sold them to the Americans because they were too lazy (I mean poor) to maintain a decent fleet.

[Xaine]

From the perspective of a gun free country.

Allowing everyone access to a means to kill each other is not the way to have a healthy community.

The same way allowing every country in the world to have nuclear weapons is a retarded idea.

You can bang on about how 'Guns don't kill people, people kill people' which is another stupid thing to say. Obviously people kill people, but giving them an easier way to do it by providing everyone access to a firearm isn't the way to stop it.

Having said that, I can understand that if you're living down a dirt track in the middle of nowhere, 40 mins from the nearest town. You'd probably want a gun.

However, all these degenerates walking around town, open carrying weapons who just spout 'ITS MY RIGHT BRO', need to be put down.

[Baneblade]

Originally Posted by Xaine

need to be put down.

With what? Bubblegum wrappers?

[Helwyr]

Originally Posted by Xaine

Allowing everyone access to a means to kill each other is not the way to have a healthy community.

Regardless of the presence of guns, we have the means to kill each other all around us every day. It isn't the absence of a particular tool such as firearms that prevents us from killing one another it's the lack of desire to do so in mentally healthy human beings. Maybe that's not you though if you really meant your statement about "putting down" those you disagree with.

A healthy community is built on family, voluntary exchange, respect, and human empathy.

[Figment]

Helwyr, ffs, you could kill someone with a sock if you want to make that argument.

But that doesn't mean you should just give everyone much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much easier ways of killing.



Don't make up idiot excuses you can't ever even believe in yourself.


Using a gun lethally or say a sock or a pen or even a heavy blunt instrument has considerably difference efficiency ratings for murder. Please tell me that if everything can be used for murders, why the predominantly used weapon would be a gun.

Hell, if you don't need a gun to kill, because you're so bloody efficient with all those "means to kill each other all around us", why the fuck would you even need a gun to defend yourself? Clearly you can just throw socks at your government to protect yourself from its tyranny.


Don't act a bloody retard, nor too lazy to come up with an actual good argument, neither of us is that stupid.

[ChipMHazard]

Originally Posted by Helwyr

As I stated a number of pages back this discussion cannot lead anywhere constructive. The beliefs and values underlying the two sides seem devoid of virtually any common ground. I've seen little to no desire from anyone to really hear and understand what the other camp has to say. I think I'm the only one that's even asked for info, but Figment never did PM me any Dutch media covering the gun debate. I doubt you or he watched any of the videos I linked.

Yes it's true I posted a photo of gun violence without posting the details surrounding it intentionally to elicit a foolish response from you guys, and Figment grabbed onto the bait like fish driven mad with hunger. You may call that trolling, but I say it proved my point that your side is not interested in facts or the truth. I bet at the time of reading this sentence you still didn't know that the shooters were agents of government in the form of the LAPD and the victims where an innocent mother and daughter delivering news papers.

So, by all means lock the thread as sadly the only exchange that actually occurs is insults, everything else hits a brick wall of self imposed ignorance.

No common ground? I disagree. The welfare and safety of people seems to be the main concern of both "sides". I don't believe in sides as strictly as many others do, I believe it to be a cop out that most often seems to lead to partisanism, among other things. You seem to be under the misconception that because someone doesn't agree if a certain point of view it also means that they do not understand it, that is untrue. You also seem to believe that one has to ask for information to gain a better understanding of something, it is most certainly possible to gain knowledge about something by oneself. Just because you, apparently, asked for information doesn't mean that you have gained any more knowledge about a subject than someone who hasn't asked. You can doubt all you want and make all the assumptions that you want, but it won't make it true. For why would I not be able to find information on my own?

Originally Posted by Helwyr

Don't play games with me implying I'm making threats or that I'm enraged or some other nonsense, The only threat I'm going to make to you is that I'll report you for trolling and personal attacks. Which is exactly what your doing.

Don't make assumptions, don't troll and don't make personal attacks.
Once again your baseless assumption would be false. The LAPD is well known for being guilty of corruption, racism, police brutality and using excessive force. All of which came up again in their most recent escapade with Dorner. I don't deny facts nor ignore them.
Does that change my views? No, it doesn't. I still don't believe that it's either a good idea nor a right to have military grade firearms. I also don't believe that any police officer or public official should ever be allowed to act out against the people they serve. That however isn't something which can be fixed by use of firearms or the threat to use said firearms.

"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty."

Something it seems that the USA, among other countries, has somewhat forgotten
Are you still going to profess that I am unaware of how the world works, if only in what limited way that I can?

So can we at the very least agree about being civil in any further discussions? If for nothing else than appearance only, as a show of good faith I shall endeavour to do so from now on.

Originally Posted by Helwyr

Regardless of the presence of guns, we have the means to kill each other all around us every day. It isn't the absence of a particular tool such as firearms that prevents us from killing one another it's the lack of desire to do so in mentally healthy human beings.

Nor is that what the debate and consequently the gun restriction should be about. It's not in anyone's power to stop people from killing other people, what can be done is minimize what kind of killing takes place and to which degree.