The AA "ladder" is messed up.

[snafus]

Originally Posted by Whiteagle

Dude, I've spent MORE time in a Mosquito then in my Lightning, and the Lightning is my best vehicle!

You are what they call an "Airchav," someone who can't comprehend the fact that their solo pwnmobile ISN'T suppose to be a solo pwnmobile just because they can keep it from crashing into the ground.

Just because Flak kills you doesn't mean it's Overpowered...
Hell, I've been killed three times as much by the AF-19 Mercenary as I have anything else, but does that mean it's an overpowered Carbine?

Twelve hours, oh my it is worse then I thought. And you have no argument whiteagle, you have no idea if I fly solo or with a squad. And I never said or even hinted that it should be a "Solo pwnmobile" that is you simply being ignorant of balance. If you actually read my comments I am trying to buff an already lethal AA tool to cover the gap the nerf of the burster would create. I want there to be a risk of death other wise this game would be boring. I am really sorry your comparison to dieing to a mercenary is so far off it is laughable. Dieng to a max AI weapon which is used mainly within 30 meters has what to do with AA maxes shooting multiple hexes away? We are speaking about maxes being able to reach out and touch aircraft far beyond render distance which gives the burster the unfair advantage. Please hold your response on air balance until you have real flight time under your belt.

https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...69089/vehicles


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=5ozQLa2cp8U

[SolLeks]

well, that makes sense lol, now I see why he seemed to be cluseless and resaulted to L2P comments, right back at ya pal.

Edit for my page:
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...17089/vehicles

[Whiteagle]

Originally Posted by snafus

https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...69089/vehicles

Originally Posted by SolLeks

https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5...17089/vehicles

Yes, I'm clearly the Bias one because I haven't spent a huge amount of my play time in an ESF...

Originally Posted by snafus

We are speaking about maxes being able to reach out and touch aircraft far beyond render distance which gives the burster the unfair advantage. Please hold your response on air balance until you have real flight time under your belt.

Uh, doesn't my LACK of flight experience speak VOLUMES about how pathetic your argument is?

I have no problem with Flak, but I am by no means a good pilot.
I just know that, like EVERYTHING ELSE in this game, over extending will get you killed VERY quickly.

Flying into the sights of an AA MAX Blob is the same if you drive a ground vehicle into view of a blob of Heavies, you are probably going to die VERY QUICKLY!
Do tanks get special exception from Rockets just because they didn't see it coming?
NO, because they are expected to have situational awareness...
Even if you can't SEE the MAXes, you should at least have a good idea where they are at, be it due to knowing the terrain or by the GLOWING FUCKING STREAKS OF TRACER FIRE beckoning right back at them.

I could agree with you on Burster MAXes having an ADVANTAGE due to not Rendering, but it's really hard to sympathize with your plight when you are flaunting a 4.36 K/D and 16,000 Air kills!

You are an Airchav...
You are exactly the type of person who destroys any attempt to discuss Air and Ground Balance civilly because, despite the fact that you have exploited the most maneuverable and hardest to defend against weapon's platform in the game, you still complain if anything DARE touch you.

Then again, you are also the person whose reflexes are too slow to simply VEER away from the falling debris of his own kills, so I'll just have to wait awhile for this to sink in...

[snafus]

Originally Posted by Whiteagle

Yes, I'm clearly the Bias one because I haven't spent a huge amount of my play time in an ESF...


Uh, doesn't my LACK of flight experience speak VOLUMES about how pathetic your argument is?

I have no problem with Flak, but I am by no means a good pilot.
I just know that, like EVERYTHING ELSE in this game, over extending will get you killed VERY quickly.

Flying into the sights of an AA MAX Blob is the same if you drive a ground vehicle into view of a blob of Heavies, you are probably going to die VERY QUICKLY!
Do tanks get special exception from Rockets just because they didn't see it coming?
NO, because they are expected to have situational awareness...
Even if you can't SEE the MAXes, you should at least have a good idea where they are at, be it due to knowing the terrain or by the GLOWING FUCKING STREAKS OF TRACER FIRE beckoning right back at them.

I could agree with you on Burster MAXes having an ADVANTAGE due to not Rendering, but it's really hard to sympathize with your plight when you are flaunting a 4.36 K/D and 16,000 Air kills!

You are an Airchav...
You are exactly the type of person who destroys any attempt to discuss Air and Ground Balance civilly because, despite the fact that you have exploited the most maneuverable and hardest to defend against weapon's platform in the game, you still complain if anything DARE touch you.

Then again, you are also the person whose reflexes are too slow to simply VEER away from the falling debris of his own kills, so I'll just have to wait awhile for this to sink in...

Your lack of experience is what is so funny to me. I never go on the infantry forums to speak on balance there as I lack the experience which lessons my opinion. In this case you only have 12 hours in an ESF which is simply laughable. It is kind of like a cook coming up and telling a Ranger how to be better at infantry. That shit wouldn't fly and the same goes here.

And if you had any real flight experience you would know you don't have to over extend to fall victim to flak traps. They are simply able to reach out over multiple hexes and score hits on you. While their tracers and actual bodies are invisible the entire time. But like I said you lack experience and have no idea what you are talking about. But yet you continue to spout nonsense and try vainly to insult me while making a spectacle of yourself.

Why is my K/D a problem to you? You realize the very nature of being a good pilot is to stay alive so not to be forced to wait on timers or resources. And I have become very good at flying in this game. But strangely enough I have defended AA in the past and even supported the nerfs of early LIBS and ESF. But you seem to think I am only interested in keeping ESF OP which they haven't been in almost six months. But again you are ignorant of my intentions just as much as you are ignorant with the balance between air and ground.

All I ask is could you please stop posting on a subject you clearly have NO experience with. You are simply diluting any quality post that could come from this thread with silly attempts to keep AA in its current OP form. I always have and will continue to fight for proper balance between air and ground. I have never wanted either party to be more powerful then the other. There are great ways to make this come true, like the nerf to bursters along with buffs to sky guard. But your persistent childish responses only slow down giving the devs quality feed back they need to help with decisions.

[Obstruction]

my LACK of flight experience speak VOLUMES

i'm not sure you want to go down this road, man.

• 10% of your total score comes from 307 kills with a trac-5 s
• this is your highest kill count for a single weapon
• your kill total is only 1375
• your most used vehicle is the mosquito @ 12.75 hours
• this is about matched by the lightning @ ~12.5 hours
• you've spent an embarrassing 1.9 hours in a prowler and managed 8 kills with it
• 33% of your score comes from engineer @ 89 hours
• 25% of your score comes from heavy assault @49.75 hours
• 20% of your score comes from light assault @68.9 hours
• you've been playing since November 20, 2012

i think it is safe to say you are an infantryman. i normally don't put a lot of stock into k/d because k/d doesn't really properly reflect everyone's playstyle.

so let's gloss over that .4 k/d and give you the benefit of the doubt.

my point in this is that there is nothing, and i mean nothing that gives you the right to strut around to the tune of 500 posts on PSU talking the way you do with your "learn to play" attitude.

there is nothing here that gives you any sort of credibility even as a ground unit.

[SolLeks]

Originally Posted by Obstruction

i'm not sure you want to go down this road, man.

• 10% of your total score comes from 307 kills with a trac-5 s
• this is your highest kill count for a single weapon
• your kill total is only 1375
• your most used vehicle is the mosquito @ 12.75 hours
• this is about matched by the lightning @ ~12.5 hours
• you've spent an embarrassing 1.9 hours in a prowler and managed 8 kills with it
• 33% of your score comes from engineer @ 89 hours
• 25% of your score comes from heavy assault @49.75 hours
• 20% of your score comes from light assault @68.9 hours
• you've been playing since November 20, 2012

i think it is safe to say you are an infantryman. i normally don't put a lot of stock into k/d because k/d doesn't really properly reflect everyone's playstyle.

so let's gloss over that .4 k/d and give you the benefit of the doubt.

my point in this is that there is nothing, and i mean nothing that gives you the right to strut around to the tune of 500 posts on PSU talking the way you do with your "learn to play" attitude.

there is nothing here that gives you any sort of credibility even as a ground unit.

Ha, this makes it even funnier! I am both a much better flyer than him, AND a much better infantry man than he is, and yet he spouts L2P so much... Maybe he should take his own advice.

[MrMak]

Can we stop the idiotic pissing contest now?

[maradine]

Yeah, this is kinda now the saddest thing ever. Want to compare net worths and yearly take-homes, while we're at it?

[AThreatToYou]

might as well just lock this thread now. can't even respond properly to a "calm down" post..

[Whiteagle]

Originally Posted by maradine

Yeah, this is kinda now the saddest thing ever. Want to compare net worths and yearly take-homes, while we're at it?

Hey it's not my fault their counter argument was "you should FLY first before you complain," then when I actually provided proof that YES, I have flown a bit they start picking apart my shitty play stats.

I never said I was a good pilot, or hell even a good player, but what does it tell you when the guy who ISN'T a top gun claims Flak is fine right now?

My argument isn't "Learn to play, NOOB," it's "Relearn how to play, Airchav!"

Stats don't say much about how much you actually contribute to your Faction other then how much you've killed the other guys.
Hell, my assist to kill ratio is .61 compared to snafus .35, meaning I've assisted nearly twice as much to OTHER players kills over my own...
...Yet this is the guy that claims to be such a great pilot, but can't even dodge the debris of something he just shot down.

So maybe, just maybe, these supposedly God-tier pilots aren't as good as their stats delude them into thinking they are.

...After all, shouldn't a good pilot be able to adapt to a rapidly changing combat environment in order to remain effective instead of whining when the one stratagem they've exploited until now no longer proves viable?

[ChipMHazard]

Perhaps everyone should stop looking at each other's stats and simply focus on the arguments being presented.
If someone finds that they do not agree with the opinion posted by someone else then they are free to present their own opinion as a counter. If neither party is capable of reaching any kind of understanding then they will simply have to agree to disagree.
Using fallacies seldom leads to anything constructive, which is what this thread will once again focus on being... The constructive part, not the fallacy part >_>

[Obstruction]

point taken, however responses regarding the players personal stats are not an argumentum ad hominem in this case, as the opponent brought his stats (and those of others) as supporting evidence in regards to his own claim.

furthermore, one side meets both requirements of expertise in the given field as well as consensus among experts. the intent was to show that there is a much higher probability of correct judgement on the part of someone with 20 times the amount of relevant experience in a competitive field.

last, it bears repeating (and revisiting the relevant posts and quotations) that one side argues for an adjustment of what the other side agreed was unfairly advantageous and that the ad hominem attack here was in fact name calling and personal insults derived from the content of a different thread, which followed immediately this concession.

[Whiteagle]

Originally Posted by Obstruction

last, it bears repeating (and revisiting the relevant posts and quotations) that one side argues for an adjustment of what the other side agreed was unfairly advantageous and that the ad hominem attack here was in fact name calling and personal insults derived from the content of a different thread, which followed immediately this concession.

Objection your honor, I never agreed to Render differences as an "Unfair" advantage, merely that it was an advantage.

While I will entertain the plaintiffs arguments on the grounds that BursterMAX Flak has been tipped into unfair territory by the recent addition of MAX abilities, the defense still claims that Bursters in and of themselves are a non-issue when it comes to game balance.

[SolLeks]

Originally Posted by ChipMHazard

Perhaps everyone should stop looking at each other's stats and simply focus on the arguments being presented.
If someone finds that they do not agree with the opinion posted by someone else then they are free to present their own opinion as a counter. If neither party is capable of reaching any kind of understanding then they will simply have to agree to disagree.
Using fallacies seldom leads to anything constructive, which is what this thread will once again focus on being... The constructive part, not the fallacy part >_>

I understand and agree with you, however when people start using L2P as their argument, they should be very experienced otherwise expect to have their stats picked clean. Wile I will now refrain from replying to anything whiteagle says from now on for your sake, Do keep in mind that his argument was that we were bad players and thus has been proven via stats to be the opposite.

Would you not say that if someone who has no forum moderator experience comes in and trys to tell you how to do your job, you would dismiss them biased upon their lack of experience when you have over 10 times the experience he has?


I don't comment on tank balance due to the fact that I don't play with tanks very much at all, so why should someone who does not play ESF other than to use them as a taxi argue with people that are very experienced with their craft.

[blashyrk]

The AA MAXes are really messed up. I would even go out on a limb and say that all aerial vehicles are REALLY weak at this point.

When confronted with the sentiment that "people who whine about AA being too strong need to L2P" it's really clear that those people haven't really tried to utilize aerial vehicles much themselves.
Here's a situation that kinda shows this, happened 10 mins before I started writing this post.
I was in a scythe circling around the borderlines of friendly territory (since you pretty much cannot allow yourself to even step 1 meter on enemy territory in an ESF these days) when a double burster max starts shooting at me from a base across a canyon (it was on Indar). I start double backing to my warpgate for repairs when a reaver suddenly appears in my tail and shoots me down in a matter of seconds (I'm not really a brilliant pilot myself).
So what happened was he passed about 1/2 of the FIRST adjacent Vanu field (or hex or whatever it's called) and a double burster MAX was waiting for him below and shot him down.
So he:
1) Waited for his friendly MAX to lower my hull HP to about 2/3.
2) Chased me and shot me down afterwards very quickly
3) Was shot down himself even though he had full hull HP in a matter of SECONDS, by a SINGLE MAX!
4) Most importantly he was battle rank 100!!! So he wasn't a "lol noob cannot pilot stop whining" kind of guy.

And just to make it clear, I have seen the both sides of the coin. During a base defense (also on Indar) me and another guy pulled MAXes for anti air. I had the burster only in the right "hand" since I didn't certify the left hand burster. The other guy had double bursters.
What happened is the 2 of us completely locked down the airspace above us. We destroyed countless Reavers, a couple of Liberators and even a Galaxy or 2. Even if the terrain was completely in their favor (it would have been a lot easier on Esamir too).
Just 2 MAXes and the air is COMPLETELY locked down.

In a huge platoon vs platoon fight, the aerial vehicles have no place at the moment.

I understand that the biggest and probably the only real argument in favor of the currently (too) powerful AA is stopping farming of infantry using "lolpods", but I think that argument is abused to death. In order to "lolpod" effectively you need to hover and be low. And to be honest, I've destroyed more Reavers and Mosquitos using the Heavy's default dumbfire rocket launcher than I've been farmed with the aforementioned "lolpods". Even with the regular carbines, 3-4 infantrymen can do serious damage to an ESF.

Also, people often compare ESFs to tanks and say that tanks can be destroyed by regular infantry quite easily as well. This is true to some extent, but there are some very important counter arguments.
1) The tank driver can spot dangerous infantry a lot easier than an ESF pilot
2) For a single infantry unit to destroy a single tank it takes at least 3-4 rockets to hit and against moving armor it actually requires skill to hit and a lot more time (reloading, positioning for taking the shot etc) whereas it doesn't really take any skill for a MAX to flak an ESF into oblivion in a matter of seconds.
3) Aerial vehicles cannot be repaired by engineers while in combat

My 2 cents