TR Max lockdown - Not again! - Page 4

SuperMorto · 2011-10-02, 04:06 PM

The TR max lock down was almost the reason I joined TR. what a fantastic piece of kit. A mech suit you could pile into the ground giving you a steady base for some serious pounding!

Now you will see this from your point of view, im telling it from a Vanu point of view. I HATE YOUR MAXES!!!! The Vanu, which i have played for so long are not to bad but, I envy your guns and lockdowns. We can fly, but yea, its seems allays into the firing line of every soldier on the battle field!

The Vanu maxes are not perfect, so im not going to moan about them, as i think they site (if a little/very under powered) right in their place.

Its a good trait, keep it.

Morto.

Bravix · 2011-10-02, 04:20 PM

People who whine about the TR max lockdown need to quit trying to use it incorrectly.

VS max can jump around, which is great outside. Indoors, it's virtually useless. Which really leaves you with no special advantage. Balanced.

NC MAX shield is good everywhere, but you can't shoot. Balanced.

TR MAX can still effectively kill when not locked down, but becomes > then everything else in lockdown. Downside is that it can't move. Balanced.

So I'm a VS AV max. Can I kill a non-locked TR AV? Sure. Can I do the same if he's locked down camping a hallway? Hell no, I'm fucked. I don't even need to be in the hallway for him to kill me, his shots will bounce around the corner and mess me up real good.

The biggest complaint seems to be that TR Max's get Deci'd when locked down. Do you SERIOUSLY think that not being locked down will save you from the Deci's? MAX's are slow and easy to nail with a deci, especially indoors where a MAX takes up the majority of the straight hallway. All the enemy has to do is shoot it down the hallway and it will hit you, whether you're moving or not.

Redshift · 2011-10-02, 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by SuperMorto

I HATE YOUR MAXES!!!! The Vanu, which i have played for so long are not to bad but, I envy your guns and lockdowns.

You hate the TR MAXes because the ones you remember are the ones that are locked down in a defended room because that's what they're balanced around. You don't remember any of the ones that were walking around because they were fodder, there's a reason TR don't use MAXes to attack

Originally Posted by Bravix

So I'm a VS AV max. Can I kill a non-locked TR AV? Sure. Can I do the same if he's locked down camping a hallway? Hell no, I'm fucked.

And that is exactly what i mean

fodder when unlocked too good when locked and camping

GTGD · 2011-10-02, 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by Redshift

This is the point exactly, you're now balancing a immobile locked down DC against a mobile scat, which is impossible, this is why the TR MAXes have been mostly crap forever. Either you balance the DC unlocked and accept it'll be fubar when locked down, or you balance it locked and accept it'll suck unlocked. The whole concept was trash.

i hope they just make the specials equipable and usable by all, all three of the MAX concepts had something which looked like it could be jumpjets so maybe thats the route they're taking

It's possible, and it happened. The DC will win the fight as long as it has a little breathing room, while the Scatmax will own extremely close range combat.

You're complaining about the TTK when the DC is not locked down and right next to the Scat, are you kidding me? Why on earth should a dual chaingun weilding MAX be as effective as a MAX with a shotgun up close, without the use of its ability? If they did that, it would have to be balanced by SEVERE damage degradation or accuracy (like the Cycler) at range. And then people would complain that it either is too weak or inaccurate at range, just like they did with the Cycler. Despite a couple of huge mistakes (JH tripleshot and lasher 2.0), the devs have pretty much balanced out weapons.

If they didn't make changes like that, the DC would have nearly the same TTK from point-blank as it would 50m away. Clearly the Scatmax doesn't have the same TTK. It's alternate fire modes which tighten the shotgun's spread have damage degradation AND slows the ROF down considerably. Not only would the DC be incredible at both short and long ranges, but the anchor would buff it even more! It would simply be unfair.

The DC is balanced just fine, both unlocked and locked. They even gave it a little boost with the Overdrive mode. Game elements don't need to be made common pool to be balanced, and nothing will be balanced in every situation. That's why you don't try to ward off a sniper with a shotgun, and why you don't bring a sniper into close range combat.

Marsgrim · 2011-10-02, 04:36 PM

Not enough objective opinion on here, and a lot of fallacy on the TR MAXes. Most people have never seriously played them that I can recognise here. The fact of the matter is a DC might be better than a Scat outdoors but all MAXes get owned by infantry with the right AV - Lancer, Phoenix and Striker will all waste an outdoor MAX.

A lockdown AV MAX is a silly idea outdoors as even the lightest tank can kill you before you can kill them.

The lockdown Burstar is only safe to use in a base, they are free BEP for any decent reaver pilot (as is the Sparrow).

The only MAXes really usable outdoors are the VS ones because of the jumpjet - the manueverability which lockdown obviously takes away.

If lockdown was so good, why was overdrive introduced?

Anyway, the crux of it is that it Redshift has hit the nail on the head. It doesn't matter how good you make lockdown, you are still a sitting and easier taget than any MAX with mobility.

More importantly, and what went wrong with PS1, is that you cannot balance the MAXes with lockdown. You either have to buff them stupendously in lockdown mode to ensure they can actually fulfil their function or you limit them and face the complaint that the lockdown is not worth it. If it is stupendously good in lockdown, you will have hordes of people who got killed by it in a second demanding a nerf.

Why not just give them 100% fire rate in normal mode and then keep the overdrive idea with 125% fire rate or something. It's far easier to balance this to appeal to most players than walk the line between something that fires 6000 man-eating T-Rexes a minute or a huge coffin.

Marsgrim · 2011-10-02, 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by GTGD

It's possible, and it happened. The DC will win the fight as long as it has a little breathing room, while the Scatmax will own extremely close range combat.

You're complaining about the TTK when the DC is not locked down and right next to the Scat, are you kidding me? Why on earth should a dual chaingun weilding MAX be as effective as a MAX with a shotgun up close, without the use of its ability? If they did that, it would have to be balanced by SEVERE damage degradation or accuracy (like the Cycler) at range. And then people would complain that it either is too weak or inaccurate at range, just like they did with the Cycler. Despite a couple of huge mistakes (JH tripleshot and lasher 2.0), the devs have pretty much balanced out weapons.

If they didn't make changes like that, the DC would have nearly the same TTK from point-blank as it would 50m away. Clearly the Scatmax doesn't have the same TTK. It's alternate fire modes which tighten the shotgun's spread have damage degradation AND slows the ROF down considerably. Not only would the DC be incredible at both short and long ranges, but the anchor would buff it even more! It would simply be unfair.

The DC is balanced just fine, both unlocked and locked. They even gave it a little boost with the Overdrive mode. Game elements don't need to be made common pool to be balanced, and nothing will be balanced in every situation. That's why you don't try to ward off a sniper with a shotgun, and why you don't bring a sniper into close range combat.

So many things wrong with your post....

Listen, the reason the DC should be compared to the Scat is because most combat takes place indoors in PS.

Outdoors is utterly irrelevant because the DC is going to get pulped by the first tank, reaver, phoenix/lancer user, liberator, heavy buggy, av max, BFR or fury that sees it.

Now if you feel differently and you want to prove a point, send me a tell in game, we'll squad up and you can spend a day trying to use the TR maxes.

Now PS2 will be different, but it's still going to have vehicles so the place to balance AI MAXes is indoors.

Redshift · 2011-10-02, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by GTGD

Why on earth should a dual chaingun weilding MAX be as effective as a MAX with a shotgun up close, without the use of its ability? If they did that, it would have to be balanced by SEVERE damage degradation or accuracy (like the Cycler) at range.

Indeed and why should it have range? it's a weapon designed for indoor CQC fighting, the only reason it has range is because it used to be the AV MAX years ago. All AI MAXes should have CQC weaponary, if you're taking them out into the open you deserve to die fast and painfully.
But still the lockdown as i have said before can't be balanced.

GTGD · 2011-10-02, 05:00 PM

Originally Posted by Marsgrim

Not enough objective opinion on here, and a lot of fallacy on the TR MAXes. Most people have never seriously played them that I can recognise here. The fact of the matter is a DC might be better than a Scat outdoors but all MAXes get owned by infantry with the right AV - Lancer, Phoenix and Striker will all waste an outdoor MAX.

A lockdown AV MAX is a silly idea outdoors as even the lightest tank can kill you before you can kill them.

The lockdown Burstar is only safe to use in a base, they are free BEP for any decent reaver pilot (as is the Sparrow).

The only MAXes really usable outdoors are the VS ones because of the jumpjet - the manueverability which lockdown obviously takes away.

If lockdown was so good, why was overdrive introduced?

Anyway, the crux of it is that it Redshift has hit the nail on the head. It doesn't matter how good you make lockdown, you are still a sitting and easier taget than any MAX with mobility.

More importantly, and what went wrong with PS1, is that <b>you cannot balance the MAXes with lockdown</b>. You either have to buff them stupendously in lockdown mode to ensure they can actually fulfil their function or you limit them and face the complaint that the lockdown is not worth it. If it is stupendously good in lockdown, you will have hordes of people who got killed by it in a second demanding a nerf.

<b>Why not just give them 100% fire rate in normal mode and then keep the overdrive idea with 125% fire rate or something. It's far easier to balance this to appeal to most players than walk the line between something that fires 6000 man-eating T-Rexes a minute or a huge coffin.</b>

Overdrive was introduced to appease whiney babies that threatened to unsub from a slowly dying game.

The DC doesn't have to be outdoors to benefit from long range. Long hallways like ones to the tubes, a tech plant's v-bay, and the long part of an interlink/dropship center's basement are prime examples.

And of course you will get hoverspammed by Reavers from behind if you lockdown on top of a mountain. At the same time, you can camp air pads without missile locks, and your projectiles don't travel so slowly and become worthless if the plane breaks a lock for a second. And if the Reaver doesn't come from outside your lockdown angle, it is dead every single time.

Last and not least, look at the bolded parts of your post. In a few sentences, you have managed to completely contradict your previous point and defeated your entire long-winded argument.

Krowe · 2011-10-02, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by GTGD

Overdrive was introduced to appease whiney babies that threatened to unsub from a slowly dying game.

Yes, THAT is what caused people to unsub/want to unsub. Not the many other near-broken aspects of gameplay

Bags · 2011-10-02, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by Bravix

VS max can jump around, which is great outside. Indoors, it's virtually useless. Which really leaves you with no special advantage. Balanced.

Dodging decimators is virtually useless?

Accuser · 2011-10-02, 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by Redshift

But still the lockdown as i have said before can't be balanced.

Sure it can. The TR MAX is ineffective while not locked down, but super effective when locked down with more firepower and defense. It's very different than other MAX units, but different doesn't mean unbalanced.

In PS1, locking down in the -right- place gave an immense advantage to TR MAXs. Having cover made all the difference, and I seem to remember that PS2 will have more cover positions within bases than PS1 did...

Redshift · 2011-10-02, 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by Accuser

Sure it can. The TR MAX is ineffective while not locked down, but super effective when locked down with more firepower and defense. It's very different than other MAX units, but different doesn't mean unbalanced.

In PS1, locking down in the -right- place gave an immense advantage to TR MAXs. Having cover made all the difference, and I seem to remember that PS2 will have more cover positions within bases than PS1 did...

Ok so if the TR have to lock down to be effective how do we attack with MAXes?
you've literally just destroyed your own argument it's not balanced if it's shit when unlocked and uber when locked

BorisBlade · 2011-10-02, 06:15 PM

You could find ways for it to work, maybe when deployed, you gain a shield that negates a % of damage too, the shield takes a sec or so to activate once deployed to avoid exploiting it, but could be powerful enough to make up for being a sitting duck. Just needs tweaking. 50% reduction for example isnt too bad, its still so easy to hit a planted max its absurd, you'll waste far more than that reduction tryin to hit a flying vs max with a deci for example. But obviously the exact number would need testing to get it right.

But of course you would HAVE TO have the overdrive paired with it again since for example a scat max can use his ability offensively to push forward, or defensively. The plant is 90% defensive.

Between being able to totally redo maxes from scratch and the upgrade/sidegrade system, they have a pretty easy job of gettin it right or pretty dam close mechanics wise. Although ive seen vehicles get fubared so nothin is 100%. :P

Traak · 2011-10-02, 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by Marsgrim

Why not just give them 100% fire rate in normal mode and then keep the overdrive idea with 125% fire rate or something. It's far easier to balance this to appeal to most players than walk the line between something that fires 6000 man-eating T-Rexes a minute or a huge coffin.

The visuals on that are hilarious. I see a special event coming on PS2. DC maxes shooting 6000 man-eating T-rexes per minute vs: NC shooting giant coffins that open, swallow all personnel they run into before tumbling to a halt and the lid slamming shut. What a graphics solution you will need for that!

DaSwede · 2011-10-02, 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by Sifer2

Lockdown can be made strong. In the Beta the TR MAX's were widely considered to be way overpowered in fact. Allowed them to lockdown chokepoints to a ridiculous degree. If they bring it back they just need to be considering how strong its going to be and design their maps around this. The power has to be worth being a sitting duck but at the same time can't completely control a part of the map an make it unable to be attacked.

Well in the beginning the pounder was the AI max as well and an arch so bad you had to aim for the sky to fight in open field battles

That was as futile as shooting a vanguard with a wet noodle gun.

However, get them indoors and the with the original splash damage and you could lock down a door easily using the secondary firing mode and keep constant nades exploding in the door.