Science vs Religion - Page 4

Crator · 2011-09-28, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by Sirisian

Didn't really bother me when my parents lied about Santa, the Easter Bunny, or the Tooth Fairy. Also no one would fall for that super-human stuff at 30. It's a bit unrealistic.

I think we are talking about something a little bit more deeper then silly icons that bring us things during holidays. And, are we really talking about being "bothered"? I just said, "Rejecting the ideas". So you haven't rejected the ideas of Santa or the Easter Bunny after a while?

Crator · 2011-09-28, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by MadPenguin

Its just an example

. The reasoning holds, if you dont like this example i will refer you to the astrology example, people go to their graves believing that stuff and it makes them feel better.

No, I understand what you mean. But, that concept only works on young kids, like you said. Not sure what we are debating here really.

MadPenguin · 2011-09-28, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by Crator

Not sure what we are debating here really.

Thats how most of these discussions end up

Lonehunter · 2011-09-28, 05:20 PM

Going back to Science vs Religion, how many wars have been started for Science/Research/technology (how ever you want to word it)? I'm not saying every war was started because of religion, but it usually plays a big part in preventing world peace.

Firefly · 2011-09-29, 07:00 AM

Originally Posted by Crator

I disagree wholeheartedly. The reason is because once they get to 30 and they realize they don't have super-human powers one comes to the conclusion that they've been lied to. At this point they reject the people/ideas that fed them these lies. Same thing happens with religion.

You're presuming that religion is completely false and that all religions are built upon lies. Considering that not all religions have the same beliefs, and that not all of them revere the same deity (some don't even revere ANY deity), I'd have to say this is a stupid presumption. Forgive me if I misinterpret what you've said.

The bottom line is this: anyone telling you that G'd is real is a liar, or is misrepresenting themselves, or is speculating. They *THINK* that G'd is real. Since nobody in living history has seen Him, sat down and had a beer with Him like He was Barack Obama in the White House garden, the skeptic in me is forced to err on the side of caution. Did G'd come over to Little Johnny's birthday party? No. Did He crash their bar mitzvah like Me First & The Gimme Gimmes? No. Did He show up as special guest on Conan O'brien? No. Is there a G'd? Maybe. You may BELIEVE. You may have FAITH. But you can't prove it one way or the other.

Conversely, anyone telling you that G'd is fake and never existed is also a liar, or is misrepresenting themselves, or speculating. Did they get in a magic fucking spaceship and fly to Heaven-land on the Highway to Heaven with Michael fucking Landon and Victor French? Did they get on the starship Enterprise with Captain Kirk and Spock's brother Sybok like in Star Trek 5 and warp-speed over to the centre of the universe? No. Did they drive by His house and sho'nuff, no lights were on at the Pearly Gates? No. Call His house and someone named Lupe answers and said "no dios aqui!"? No. Is there NOT a G'd? Maybe. You may BELIEVE. You may have DOUBT.

Nobody knows for sure. And that's the cold, hard truth. Everyone claiming one way or the other just wants you to "see the truth" and play for their team, or they're a charlatan. Take your pick. It's up to each person to decide what they believe.

Baneblade · 2011-09-29, 09:53 AM

The very definition of Ignosticism right there... a magazine I subscribe to incidentally.

Crator · 2011-09-29, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by Firefly

You're presuming that religion is completely false and that all religions are built upon lies. Considering that not all religions have the same beliefs, and that not all of them revere the same deity (some don't even revere ANY deity), I'd have to say this is a stupid presumption. Forgive me if I misinterpret what you've said.

Don't put words in my mouth. I was responding to a post about fairy tale characters (Santa and Easter Bunny). I presume nothing about other religions. I simply conversing on unfounded beliefs from the bible (not even a religion thing now) that people try to pass off as truth.

Quovatis · 2011-09-29, 11:00 AM

Saying god is fake isn't being a liar. There is absolutely no evidence for a god. Would you call someone a liar if they said unicorns are fake? You could say that about anything.

Crator · 2011-09-29, 12:22 PM

That was never said. I did state that saying god is real is being a lair. You got it twisted somehow.

Quovatis · 2011-09-29, 12:24 PM

My response was to Firefly, sorry.

Sirisian · 2011-09-29, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by Crator

I think we are talking about something a little bit more deeper then silly icons that bring us things during holidays. And, are we really talking about being "bothered"? I just said, "Rejecting the ideas". So you haven't rejected the ideas of Santa or the Easter Bunny after a while?

Yes, but I didn't reject the people that told me those ideas. It also didn't lower any false hope or destroy any morals that were created. (Better to have given than to receive etc). The point though is that the good ideas don't die when the lie does. Religion in a way is like that to a lot of people. Even people that reject it earlier in life. They don't normally reject the underlying teachings or the people. They just reject the parts they want to. (Deities and spirituality, for instance in my case). I digress though. I hope you can make the connection between what I said and how to "give someone self-esteem" like MadPenguin said. (You don't lose the self-esteem when the lie dies basically).

To relate that to science would probably take some psychology.

Crator · 2011-09-29, 02:08 PM

I'd imagine you may be surprised that it does more damage then naught. Never did I say that people were rejected, only the ideas founded on blind faith. I suppose there are many situations that have occurred that would mess up relationships between people, depending on the situations that those people went through together.

Firefly · 2011-09-29, 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by Quovatis

Saying god is fake isn't being a liar. There is absolutely no evidence for a god. Would you call someone a liar if they said unicorns are fake? You could say that about anything.

You'll note multiple options in there.

Quovatis · 2011-09-29, 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by Firefly

You'll note multiple options in there.

Ok, well, I still don't get what you're trying to say then. You said anyone saying there is no god is a liar, misrepresenting themselves, or speculating. Give an example where they might be lying. What do you mean by misrepresenting themselves? For speculating, I agree. But again, that can be applied to anything else that is nonsense. I'm speculating that there isn't a teapot in orbit of Jupiter. I'm speculating there is not such a thing as unicorns. I haven't seen a unicorn or surveyed every inch of the area around Jupiter, but I'm about as certain as I can be that they don't exist. When someone says there is no god, that's what they mean. They mean they are as sure there is no god as they are sure about anything else that has no evidence. Could there be unicorns, a teapot around Jupiter, or a god? Possibly. We have no way of knowing FOR SURE, but without evidence for any of them, we can say colloquially that they don't exist. Most atheists are really agnostic, and even Richard Dawkins admits that.

Firefly · 2011-09-29, 06:13 PM

Originally Posted by Quovatis

We have no way of knowing FOR SURE, but without evidence for any of them, we can say colloquially that they don't exist.

We can call it whatever we like, colloquially or speculation or talking out of our ass or conjecture. At the end of the day, WE DON'T KNOW. Full stop. No caveats. You don't know, I don't know, and Joe Snuffy down the street at the local Pentecostal Holiness & Shitfire Church doesn't know, either.

THAT is my point. That's what amuses me about the whole debate. Nobody has any proof, and yet each side at various points goes screaming their heads off, getting defensive when their stance is attacked.

When science has enough evidence to prove whether or not G'd exists, someone call me unless I catch it on ThinkGeek. Science is growing in leaps and bounds. Everyone thought that because Einstein thought FTL wasn't possible, it wasn't. Until a bunch of Europeans proved him wrong a few weeks ago. So maybe one day, science will be able to come up with a way of figuring out the truth, pro or con. Until then, you're entitled to believe what you want to believe, just like everyone else. All this hullabaloo about he-said/she-said you're-wrong/I'm-right lalala-I'm-not-listening is stupid for everyone involved.