Why K:D, Deaths, streaks and other stats are bad, and how PS2 can evolve the genre - Page 4

Gandhi · 2012-03-07, 03:34 PM

I think it's pretty obvious at this point that the design goal for PS2 is much closer to BF3 than to the original. The empires and the scale are the same, everything else comes straight from BF3 and CoD. It'll be successful and it'll probably be fun, but it's definitely not the game I imagined when I heard "Planetside 2". Not at all.

Too bad. I think that could have been a really good game too.

Originally Posted by ArmedZealot

You mean like real life where people feel the fear of death?

If I could respawn in real life I wouldn't fear death nearly as much as I do now, would you? Please stop comparing video games to real life, it never works.

VioletZero · 2012-03-07, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by Gandhi

I think it's pretty obvious at this point that the design goal for PS2 is much closer to BF3 than to the original. The empires and the scale are the same, everything else comes straight from BF3 and CoD. It'll be successful and it'll probably be fun, but it's definitely not the game I imagined when I heard "Planetside 2". Not at all.

Too bad. I think that could have been a really good game too.

Dramatic much?

Remember, still in alpha so it is subject to change.

ArmedZealot · 2012-03-07, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by Gandhi

I think it's pretty obvious at this point that the design goal for PS2 is much closer to BF3 than to the original. The empires and the scale are the same, everything else comes straight from BF3 and CoD. It'll be successful and it'll probably be fun, but it's definitely not the game I imagined when I heard "Planetside 2". Not at all.

Too bad. I think that could have been a really good game too.

You are going to pay SOE money for this game. Tell me you won't because kill streaks are included.

ThGlump · 2012-03-07, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by ArmedZealot

You mean like real life where people feel the fear of death?

If respawns was common IRL, there wouldnt be fear of death

But how many wars would have any progress if soldiers didnt do anything risky? And thats what we are in planetside.

**Malorn** · 2012-03-07, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by Raymac

Also, I think it is pretty ridiculous to infer that Planetside will degenerate into a deathmatch just because k/d is tracked. You know better than that, Malorn.

I said its bad for the game and discourages team play. I didn't say the entire game degenerates to deathmatch, but if that's what the devs encourage, that's what people will tend to do.

I say again, just because games did it in the past does not mean it is right for THIS game to do it. This game is very different from other modern shooters. Its time to recognize that and challenge assumptions.

I claim that removal of death stat tracking and promoting score as a stat that can take almost anything into consideration will significantly improve the game by encouraging different and more team-oriented player behaviors and give the developers the power to encourage / discourage specific behaviors and shape the game. I believe this to be an incredibly good thing for the game both long term and short-term.

Do you disagree with that?

EVILoHOMER · 2012-03-07, 03:38 PM

I really hope SOE don't listen to any of us on these forums. You'll all ruin the game and turn it into some underground MMO no one plays if they do. SOE have been playing the game, they know better than any of us and until we're playing we shouldn't get much of a say.

I also think SOE needs to make the game for both old and new players, which means kill cams and stats, if you don't like them then ignore them or turn them off if there is an option to. This needs to be made into a modern shooter and not some call back to the past, tbh Planetside was never that great anyways. Most people I know quit in 2003 and 2004 because of all the issues and judging by how it has been doing ever since BFRs everyone else did but the die hard fans that are probably like 10,000 people.

So lets not turn Planetside 2 into some niche game because I'd like to actually be able to play with people 24/7 unlike Planetside where you got a short window at peak time and the game was dead the rest of the day.

ArmedZealot · 2012-03-07, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by ThGlump

If respawns was common IRL, there wouldnt be fear of death

But how many wars would have any progress if soldiers didnt do anything risky? And thats what we are in planetside.

Soldiers fear death, fear doing things risky and coordinate their operations around people not getting shot. How do you measure how successful your operation is done without having a death stat? Because it got done?

Sifer2 · 2012-03-07, 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by ArmedZealot

You mean like real life where people feel the fear of death?

In real life you wouldn't go through the door you would blow the building up. It's a Sci-Fi game world with its own rules. If pushing inside is what you need to do to take the base over, and win then that shouldn't be discouraged. If anything the guy brave enough to take the lead and finally start the charge that won the fight should be the one getting a medal not the Sniper that hid on a mountain top nearby farming safe kills that didn't really do anything.

Gandhi · 2012-03-07, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by VioletZero

Dramatic much?

Remember, still in alpha so it is subject to change.

They're not going to change the core design goals in beta. And no I don't find it dramatic at all, I find it a pretty obvious statement of fact.

Originally Posted by ArmedZealot

You are going to pay SOE money for this game. Tell me you won't because kill streaks are included.

Probably will, and I even said as much when I said it would probably be fun. But that doesn't change how I feel about it.

ArmedZealot · 2012-03-07, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by Gandhi

They're not going to change the core design goals in beta. And no I don't find it dramatic at all, I find it a pretty obvious statement of fact.

Probably will, and I even said as much when I said it would probably be fun. But that doesn't change how I feel about it.

Why do you feel it is a bad thing for something to be fun?

Effective · 2012-03-07, 03:41 PM

Stats in general are absolutely fine, including K/D/A. I don't agree with killstreaks however.

MrBloodworth · 2012-03-07, 03:41 PM

The problem, EVILoHOMER. Is that they are asking the wrong questions.

They should not be asking how to remove dependance on others, or how to focus on the individual. But how to encourage the team based play that made Planetside one awesome.

They are removing everything team based to conform to a completely different kind of shooter. The kind that encourages soloists.

TL;DR They should be improving on the core design of Planetside one, not tossing the baby out with the bathwater.

Gandhi · 2012-03-07, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by ArmedZealot

Why do you feel it is a bad thing for something to be fun?

When did I say that?

VioletZero · 2012-03-07, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by Gandhi

They're not going to change the core design goals in beta. And no I don't find it dramatic at all, I find it a pretty obvious statement of fact.

That is assuming that this is their goal at all.

What they said is that they wanted a modernized Planetside. But they can always stop and realize "Wow, this isn't right for Planetside 2."

Aurmanite · 2012-03-07, 03:43 PM

The real solution here is not to remove K/D tracking, but rather adding stat tracking for other in game activities as well. Things such as revives, healing done, damage repaired, doors hacked, resupplies given, and so on.

There's a lot of theory in the OP that is purely conjecture. Even though we have two decades of shooter experience there is no proof that K/D's and tracking deaths changes the meta game... the way a game is played by the general player base. To claim that such proof exists in an argument to remove a feature many people enjoy is wrong.

Death is something players want to avoid as much as possible regardless of whether or not it is tracked. Players will go to extreme measures to avoid death and there is no way you can remove this behavior, or even significantly decrease it, because death will always be a negative consequence a player has to suffer. The negativity of death cannot be lessened by the removal of stat tracking because it is not the stat itself that a player wishes to avoid.

The fact is, playing strategically with like minded players is the best way someone can avoid death. Having balanced squad that will support itself increases the individual player's chance for success and greatly improve his or her survivability. This is something that the OP has not considered. Players will want to group up and support each other rather than getting killed over and over by players who do. This truth cannot be changed by the addition/removal of K/D tracking.

All of us are going to be playing with people we know and like. Outfits and squads will be filled with like minded players who understand that this game is not about padding your K/D ratio. These players will be the ones that make a difference in the game and they will be rewarded for doing so. They will crush individual K/D farmers, capture the base, and move on. If you find yourself in a group or outfit that does not understand that this is the right way to play, there will be plenty of others to join.

I like K/D tracking. I like domination and kill streaks. If I play a medic, I want to be rewarded for my ability to kill your ass dead in addition to keeping everyone alive, healed, and resurrected.

Planetside is a shooter, everything else you do within the game is your choice. When it comes down to it, being a soldier and murdering fools is what the game is about.