Lets talk about the ressource system. Right now, its borderline Pay to Win - Page 4

basti · 2013-06-22, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by Malorn

Just gonna leave this here.
https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/...-revamp.83018/

Dude, you know that i know about the revamp. I just fear that you guys cant really do the best possible solution as long as those boosts exist. At least the numbers i have in my head suggest that (and the voices...).

Would love to hear what you guys currently plan for the resource system.

Varsam · 2013-06-22, 01:27 PM

Don't get why people are so surprised that there is a P2W element in this game. Why the hell else would anyone sub? Out of the goodness of their hearts? C'mon.

**Malorn** · 2013-06-22, 01:36 PM

Not going to comment on boosts, sorry.

What do you think of infantry, ground, and air all using the same resource?

Nathaniak · 2013-06-22, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by Malorn

Just gonna leave this here.
https://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/...-revamp.83018/

September - Resource Revamp

There's the issue. Those who are annoyed by the changes are annoyed now. If the 'fix' is in 3 months' time, then maybe the changes in resource cost should have waited until then.

Personally, I would be fine with very expensive vehicles if vehicles had any survivability. Currently, they die too easily - in my opinion, a single infantry soldier, even if he/she gets the drop on a tank from the rear, should have a very low chance of destroying it. A big part of this problem are tank mines - they should be cheap, numerous and weak, instead of a big all-or-nothing investment. Each engineer should be able to place a minefield of 15+ mines, all of which are small and hard to detect. You'd need ~10 direct hits to kill a stock MBT.

Strong, rare vehicles - that's what I want. Currently, the resource costs enforce the rare part, but the vehicles themselves do not live up. Only the Flash should be vulnerable to a single missile/mine. Other vehicles should require concentrated effort to down them.

Edit:

Originally Posted by Malorn

Not going to comment on boosts, sorry.

What do you think of infantry, ground, and air all using the same resource?

I would go back to the beta system of polymers, catalysts and alloys, for one. 'Aerospace resources' sounds silly - I prefer the idea of working with raw materials to working with pre-assembled parts, as suggested by the current names. A mix from all three resource pools per item might be nice.

I do like the idea of multiple, separate resources, though. It means that you have more options - for example, you can't build any more heavy vehicles, but you can still pull a MAX. I like that.

Dreamcast · 2013-06-22, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by Malorn

Not going to comment on boosts, sorry.

What do you think of infantry, ground, and air all using the same resource?

That will benefit players who play one role a lot...Like me, I mostly play infantry.

I almost never use vehicles or aircraft at all so they are always max at 750.

So Im for it....it will feel more "fair" than now.

But you guys should get rid of Resource boost...I remember you guys comparing this to League of Legends...that's like if League of legends sold boost to get more gold each time somebody killed a champ or more gold per second...Sure in LoL you buy things in game that gives u permanent power increase during the duration of the game, that doesn't happen in PS2, 1 vs 1 are fair mostly if people have a similar weapon(tank vs Tank,sniper vs sniper,etc)....but overtime you see the huge advantage Paying players get since they can buy a bunch of tanks/planes/medic kits/etc.

Is not fair when resources is in game power.

This is the reason why Resource discount cost for winning a continent is only 10%....If you guys made it 50%, that faction will be way too OP lol.

omega four · 2013-06-22, 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by Varsam

Don't get why people are so surprised that there is a P2W element in this game. Why the hell else would anyone sub? Out of the goodness of their hearts? C'mon.

Agreed. F2P games allow players to play for free with the unstated condition and expectation that those who are willing to pay will undoubtedly enjoy some advantage over those who are not.

Neurotoxin · 2013-06-22, 02:21 PM

Timers are fine, just make them longer or remove / refund the accelerated timer certs. Get rid of vehicle and aerospace resources, buying infantry consumables and maintaining implants should be the only things that consume resources.

And be sure implants aren't purchased with certs to upkeep. Certs are not meant to be a finite resource, and making them as such is totally counter-intuitive to the purpose of certs. They can be unlocked with certs, but not maintained by certs. That is where resources should be needed.

Calista · 2013-06-22, 02:27 PM

Resources just unnecessarily complicate things so if you want to go with just one type please do. That or eliminate them altogether is fine by me. It just seems there are too many objectives now. XP for certs, kills for stats, bases for benefits, conts for discounts, alerts for XP, resources for a means to conduct activity for the previous mentioned objectives etc. About the only way you can make resources mean more is make them more scarce or more valuable (GU11) and that is just turning people off because they cannot use the tools they want to in order to achieve the plethora of objectives already in the game. This all kinda reminds of the debate of eliminating auraxium and going with certs as the global currency and we all know how that turned out.

basti · 2013-06-22, 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by Malorn

Not going to comment on boosts, sorry.

What do you think of infantry, ground, and air all using the same resource?

Just making all the same resource isnt helping really, because thats not the problem.

The main problem of the resource system is that it makes it harder to defend the more you actually have to defend. When you got pushed to your warpgate, you just have a hard time maintaining whatever territorys you still have, because you just cant use as much maxes, C4, vehicles and stuff. Meanwhile, the dudes attacking can use even more stuff, because they get more resources.

I have countless potential new resource systems in mind that would fix this issue, but none of them would be possible as long as you are required to have a personal resource pool, and boosts just force that.

Some guys got the idea of some kind of supply chain. To boil it down to its core: the further away from your warpgate you are, the more expensive vehicles become, and/or the less resources you get out of territorys that far away from your warpgate. While this would in theory greatly reduce the issue, it would complicate the resource system greatly.

I personally want all resources to be an empire wide pool, cross continent even, while infantary resources have a personal pool besides the empire wide pool. With a more complex command system, allowing squad/platoon leaders to claim lead of a given area if they have most/all of their squad/platoon in that area, Squad/platoon leaders could issue a "go all out" order, filling up everyones infantary resource pool by taking those resources from the empire pool. This would allow for last resort options like mass maxcrashes or crazy LA C4 action, or allow to prepare for an incoming attack by laying vast minefields.

To then combat situations where you are about to become warpgated, a resource reserver that automaticly triggers whenever your empire is pushed back far enough and low on resources would do the trick, and allow timed, mass pushes.

I want the resource system something that your entire empire needs to think and care about, or they get into trouble.

Badjuju · 2013-06-22, 06:26 PM

Originally Posted by basti

A harsh statment, i know, but let me explain.

With the new resource prices for vehicles and Maxes, resources now actually matter. However, the resource bonus from boosts and Subscriptions screw greatly with the concept.

A total free player is pretty much shafted, a player with Auraxium Subscription and a resource boost has only small problems.

There are several ways to fix this:

A. We revert back to useless resources by making stuff cheap again. In the end, the whole resource system could be taken out then, as it would be entierly pointless.

B. we get rid of resource boosts, means everyone, regardless of how much money he spends, gets the same amount of resources.

Option A is easy to archive, but removes great potential for a deep metagame out of the game. We all want more meta and more strategy, so lets not go there.

Lets take a look at option B instead: Taking away a bonus subscribers get will be a pain in the ass, but the vast majority of subscribers would propably be okay with it, if not even happy, if we give them something nice in return. For once, they propably get a better game in return, with a deep metagame that involves not just continent locking and a global lattice (im sure this stuff is still coming, no reason to belive otherwise), as well as a deep resource system that affects the strategys we dream up.

However, people also want a direct compensation for the loss of the resource boost. So i suggest: Kill the resource boosts for subscribers, give them another 6 months XP boost.

As for the Alpha squad boost, i suggest it becomes a 100% XP boost with no resource boost. Most of the Alpha squad boosts are running out in 2 months or so anyway.

Whatya think?

Not going to read the whole thing because I get the gist of the argument and I'm lazy. I'm a premium member and absolutely believe the resource boost needs to be removed. Same thing for resource boost implants. Let people keep what they have and phase them out.

With that being said I think the vehicle price increase was a must. Was it too much? To early to tell, especially considering the variation resource gains.

My suggestion:
1) remove all resource boosts
2) then balance vehicle health with vehicle cost, and vehicle vs vehicle damage if needed. I think damage against infantry is in a good place.

Baneblade · 2013-06-22, 06:55 PM

At the very least you shouldn't be so hard pressed for resources when not running with the zerg. I refuse to believe that it is intentional for the winner to be able to pull tanks and air endlessly and camp your gate while you have to AFK on another continent to be able to pull one vehicle on the continent you are sucking wind on.

The resource system isn't pay to win, its shit for everyone. Either make it global or dump it entirely.

DirtyBird · 2013-06-22, 07:16 PM

For those occupying a higher level than most, who have just signed up for 12mths subs, whats in it for them with the proposed changes?
They would expect to continue to receive what they have paid for, its a subscription.

Take away the Resource bonus in this situation and whats left?
XP Boost? Dont need it.
Passive Cert points? Still have thousands spare.
Priority Login? Have never had to queue.
Extra Character Slots? Probably didnt reach their current high level playing extra characters.
Daily Members Sale? Yawn
500 SC p/m? Whoopee!

So if you remove the resource boost I think they'd have a good case for a refund.
Whats the chances of an SOE cash refund?
What could they possibly add to subscriptions to encourage those who have reached 100 to continue to subscribe?
And remember we'll all be lvl 100 one day.

I cant see them messing with the subscription model, the cash flow is too important.

And afaik Alpha Squad Boosts are still 180days for new characters on an account and wont tick down until you equip them.

GreyFrog · 2013-06-22, 07:58 PM

I'm just seeing this update as a test for the resource revamp, they cant test it on the PTS it has no pop.

I'd like to resources based on continent control scrapped, it punishes the losing side too much. I'd also like to see MAX resources come out of a separate pool to infantry as its easily the most utilised resource.

As a whole I wouldnt be sad to see the whole concept scrapped a reworked. The current implementation feels a little shoehorned into a role it wasnt designed for, you'd be better off putting on arbitrary timers if you only want X unit pulled every Y minutes.

I'm going to counter act some negativity here - I really enjoy PS2. I think it gets overall better with each update. I think you guys do a great job engaging the community. You still have a lot of work to go, the game feels a little lost with what it wants to be right now.

omega four · 2013-06-22, 08:15 PM

I think PS2 feels a little lost with what it wants to be right now because the PS2 developers are caught between that proverbial rock and a hard place.

On one side, you have the PS2 gamers, who know what they want and what they like to see in PS2. On the other side, you have SOE, a for-profit corporation that wants PS2 to generate lots of profit.

Guess who directly pays the PS2 developers' salaries? Guess who the PS2 developers end up listening to? That's right, SOE wins every time.

To be fair, some PS2 gamers do pay the PS2 developers' salaries but it's in an indirect manner.

Originally Posted by GreyFrog

You still have a lot of work to go, the game feels a little lost with what it wants to be right now.

capiqu · 2013-06-22, 08:33 PM

Darn it!!! that's it for me. I'll come back in 15 years when the game is finally finished. T-Ray Jr and M Higby Jr will be around by then.