My main concern about the class system - Page 4

Bags · 2011-07-26, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by EASyEightyEight

Y'see, THAT's the problem. No one is supposed to be completely self-sustaining in any one role.

Um... tank driver + engineer = completely self sufficient. Wondering, who says no one is supposed to be completely self sufficient at ONE ROLE?

Originally Posted by Aractain

Its not really about teamwork from my point of view. Its about gameplay. If everyone is self suffient there isn't as much variety in gameplay. The devs literally can't add more features to the game for the fear of overpowering the super soliders.

Your setup is 3 major areas of gameplay all in one with no disadvantages. A good game design gives you meaningful choices with trade offs and because you can't do everything you can make everything more powerful and more fun - putting more depth into each skillset.

So I just spent all of my certs on HA/AV/MED/ENG, how does adding more certification options overpower me, exactly? I'm out of certs!

No major disadvantages? I have no transportation. I have no hacking ability. I have limited medical abilities. I have limited engineering abilities. I can't snipe. I can't area deny via special assault.

I fill one role: soldier. What is wrong with this? (BTW, what is this third area of gameplay that I can fill? I can fight indoors and outdoors... that's two. And the second a half decent tank driver comes by I'm dead outdoors)

It's like you guys hate any one who has a different playstyle than you or something. There's no need to change something you don't like. I don't like maxes but you don't see me campaigning to get them removed, because I understand other people like to do other things and I'm okay with that. instead of nerfing the individual how about we BUFF teamplay?

Aractain · 2011-07-26, 12:44 PM

Im not talking about PS1 so certs never run out - its just time. And because of that there is better upgrade options than PS1 had (more certs which totaly broke their model).

I love all playstyles, I want more and I hope the devs support more than the original PS. That wont happen if the most obvious and easiest choice is the one you mentioned.

Bags · 2011-07-26, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by Aractain

Im not talking about PS1 so certs never run out - its just time. And because of that there is better upgrade options than PS1 had (more certs which totaly broke their model).

I love all playstyles, I want more and I hope the devs support more than the original PS. That wont happen if the most obvious and easiest choice is the one you mentioned.

Why is it the easiest choice? Substantiate your arguments, please! I don't think everyone wants to be a grunt like I do.

MasterChief096 · 2011-07-26, 01:02 PM

You know Bags has said a lot of things on these forums I don't agree with, but I'm on his side with this one. If he is spec'd the way he describes he'll suck at every other role out there compared to those who are spec'd in those roles.

IMO, I'm not a fan of the new class system with time unlocks and all that "new FPS gamer person" jazz. If I create a character and want to cert Reaver, I want to go fight 5 year players with Reaver and not even have to worry about a 20% advantage they have over me. I don't care that they want to appeal to an MMORPG crowd and that's why that have somewhat of a power achievement for characters. PlanetSide is an MMOFPS, so I say die-hard MMORPG players can go play MMORPGs. There was NEVER a place in PlanetSide for power upgrades. The sound of, "but your reaver will be more maneuverable, durable, and powerful" just scares the living hell out of me.

The beauty of PS is that if I wanted to go from playing a heavy infantry type character to a full vehicles type person, I merely had to spend the time forgetting certs for a few days and then re-spec, or use a forget all.

Now, in PS2, it sounds like right from the beginning, players and outfits are going to have to specialize in only ONE role or suffer being farmed by a reaver outfit that has been a reaver outfit since day 1.

If you think that players and outfits who specialize in certain roles should be awarded for doing so, think about THIS: Why not their reward be the experience and skill they get from USING these damn roles, instead of unlockable upgrades and improvements that give them a power advantage. If you're a reaver outfit and solely a reaver outfit, you're going to be BAD ASS in the air simply because you always do it, your players are used to flying them, and you've developed your own tactics.

PS2 doesn't need power upgrades, it simply needs options like the first game, options that take time to switch between.

Bags · 2011-07-26, 01:08 PM

The cert system was one things of Planetside that really was 100% perfectly brilliant until they gave us a million cert points.

Vancha · 2011-07-26, 02:29 PM

I've said it before but I'll say it again. The main challenge for the class system is giving individual classes enough mind-blowingly cool stuff to make up for losing the versatility and personalization of the cert system. If the class system doesn't do that, it's a failure, because it'll be a step back from a game that was released 8 years ago.

Even the best versions of the class system in other games pales in comparison to the certification system (so long as people aren't given too many certs), thus a class system starts off already being on the back foot by comparison, so it'll be interesting to see what new improvements and additions they plan to incorporate into their class system to bring it up to the same level as certifications.

I'm honestly looking forward to it.

Headrattle · 2011-07-26, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by Aractain

Your setup is 3 major areas of gameplay all in one with no disadvantages. A good game design gives you meaningful choices with trade offs and because you can't do everything you can make everything more powerful and more fun - putting more depth into each skillset.

I wouldn't say "no disadvantages" exactly. Less ammo, no vehicles, ect. Having three major set ups just means you are a little more flexible. PS1 allowed you to use other certs if you wanted to, but you couldn't have all of the certs.

Now, contrast that with the class system... Not only can you be anything you want with the click of an equipment terminal, but your main class is up to 20% stronger, faster, or tougher. How is that an improvement? If you think that those that have been playing for a while have an advantage now, then given how they describe it, the class system will be worse.

Aractain · 2011-07-26, 04:13 PM

Yeah I see what your saying.

The problem is back in PS1 I felt if I didn't choose the HA/Med/Engy/Mossie/AV etc then I wasn't a) useful enough unless I was REALLY good at something or b) going to have much fun because everyone else seemed to choose that so everyone was the same (or was a MAX).

I see the limiting of capability a way to 'solve' that problem by breaking things up.

Bags · 2011-07-26, 04:18 PM

And I think that's a poor reason. People will min/max regardless.

Headrattle · 2011-07-26, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by Aractain

Yeah I see what your saying.

The problem is back in PS1 I felt if I didn't choose the HA/Med/Engy/Mossie/AV etc then I wasn't a) useful enough unless I was REALLY good at something or b) going to have much fun because everyone else seemed to choose that so everyone was the same (or was a MAX).

I see the limiting of capability a way to 'solve' that problem by breaking things up.

Never did that to me. I never felt pressured to fill that role. I am a tank driver mainly. But my loadout allows me to assist outside of the tank as well. I am a tank driver/medic/engineer/hacker. These are all support roles. Could I get HA? Sure. But that would mean that I would have considerable less inventory space because of that damned gun. And thus I would have to lose either Ammo, ability, or I am unable to drive my tank.

Bags · 2011-07-26, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by Headrattle

Never did that to me. I never felt pressured to fill that role. I am a tank driver mainly. But my loadout allows me to assist outside of the tank as well. I am a tank driver/medic/engineer/hacker. These are all support roles. Could I get HA? Sure. But that would mean that I would have considerable less inventory space because of that damned gun. And thus I would have to lose either Ammo, ability, or I am unable to drive my tank.

The only reason I can think of that you would feel "pressured" to cert HA is everything of importance, capture wise, happens indoors.

With PS2 that's not the case.

Aractain · 2011-07-26, 05:06 PM

Its not so much pressure to fill the role, just that is like a constant reminder that you arn't playing the game 'correctly' because your not getting the best KPM or KDR or whatever (and dieing a lot more than others - but that might just be because I suck -_-).

I enjoyed AV/MA/Engy/Adv Medic/Tanks/Buggys/AA mostly which meant I was bait to the reavers and mossie when outdoors (even when AA lol!) and bait to the HA indoors without offering much to the team because im running a 'subpar' build. (That was a WoW joke, I really ment that my fun is tempered by the not fun of not having a real role in the game).

I don't think healing is going to be so important this time from the sound of it so losing basic med is fine. Will we have armour as infantry? Will engineer types be the only way to repair MAXs?

I don't see the support stuff as meaning as much or meaning MORE since it isn't as common. So for me it comes down to guns. Having the ability with one loadout (PS1 example) to shoot infantry, MAXs, ground vehicles and air vehicles all in one loadout and all at optimum rate is bad design.

Would you care so much if you still had the ability to heal and repair somehow with weapon roles limited?

(Wish I was better at explaining myself)

Headrattle · 2011-07-26, 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by Aractain

Its not so much pressure to fill the role, just that is like a constant reminder that you arn't playing the game 'correctly' because your not getting the best KPM or KDR or whatever (and dieing a lot more than others - but that might just be because I suck -_-).

Never really pressured that way either. Can there be balance? Yes. HA can be more expensive in my opinion. Improvements? Of course. But it just looks to me like the Class system is going to make everything you guys complain about, worse.

I don't see the support stuff as meaning as much or meaning MORE since it isn't as common. So for me it comes down to guns. Having the ability with one loadout (PS1 example) to shoot infantry, MAXs, ground vehicles and air vehicles all in one loadout and all at optimum rate is bad design.

Define optimum. Because you aren't doing it at an "optimum rate." You need a lot of inventory space for all that. And at the time, Rexo made it even more expensive to run. You could do that, but at the failing of support roles. Meaning you had to depend on others, or die frequently. That isn't "optimum" in my opinion.

EASyEightyEight · 2011-07-26, 07:25 PM

Originally Posted by Bags

Um... tank driver + engineer = completely self sufficient. Wondering, who says no one is supposed to be completely self sufficient at ONE ROLE?

Wait... I'm expected to drive AND gun for my tank simultaneously? This is news to me.

'Course, we're also assuming in PS2 I can bring some form of repair tool for my tank. Haven't yet seen any definitive evidence of a "pilot" class (or any class for that matter) yet, just mention of certs that help work a tank.

I'm looking forward to the class system. I'm looking forward to people needing to choose between their HA that fires mini-nukes or healing themselves and turning into unstoppable killing machines... with assault rifles. For the record, I'll be the guy with the medical applicator, probably with certs to buff your HP and reload speed too. That's another potential perk of the system that would be way OP if one guy could do it all.

Teamwork is NOT "hey, can I get a ride to the next battle?" That's hitch-hiking.

Bags · 2011-07-26, 07:26 PM

Originally Posted by EASyEightyEight

Wait... I'm expected to drive AND gun for my tank simultaneously? This is news to me.

'Course, we're also assuming in PS2 I can bring some form of repair tool for my tank. Haven't yet seen any definitive evidence of a "pilot" class (or any class for that matter) yet, just mention of certs that help work a tank.

I'm looking forward to the class system. I'm looking forward to people needing to choose between their HA that fires mini-nukes or healing themselves and turning into unstoppable killing machines... with assault rifles. For the record, I'll be the guy with the medical applicator, probably with certs to buff your HP and reload speed too. That's another potential perk of the system that would be way OP if one guy could do it all.

Teamwork is NOT "hey, can I get a ride to the next battle?" That's hitch-hiking.

I really don't see why I can't have a shitty medapp while you get a bitching medapp. You do realize I'm not an unstoppable killing machine because I can't heal incombat, right? Right?!??!

I guess you haven't played planetside since you don't know what the lightning is.