Resource Collection and Self Interest

[CutterJohn]

Originally Posted by Forsaken One

Lighnting with all the bells and whistles.*** if you certed it. and as I try to point out. there is a BIG difference. Shooter players do not like dealing with money/etc bullshit. that's why shooter games that do have a "cap" that one can work for. once you hit this cap you can stop worrying about bullshit stuff like grinding. as you have access to everything.

Planetside had it, battlefield has it, CoD has it.

with rebuying bullshit there would be a forever grind, you'd never be able to reach the point where you can fully enjoy the game without really worry about "bullshit"

we are talking a BIG difference between RPG players and shooter players.

Edit: I feel the need to explain this better. MMORPGs are boring as shit. there-for a forever grind is needed to keep the game going and exciting. FPS games are backwards to this. Shooters are exciting to play and as such shooter players want to get the grind out of the way as soon as they can so they never have to deal with the bullshit again, understand?

Thats a mighty big brush you're painting with. I would be ecstatic if tomorrow they announced that battle ranks and cert training times are going away, and I quite like the idea that you'll have to manage your resources, as well as the fact that it gives something to fight over specific areas of land for.

Btw, counterstrike has buying stuff. I've heard thats fairly popular.

[Forsaken One]

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

Btw, counterstrike has buying stuff. I've heard thats fairly popular.

all you ever do is run around with a Deagle or sniper anyway. you could make everything free and it would still be Deagle or sniper.

People talk about modernizing Planetside. The fact is that crap for Shooters is the past as no one wanted to deal with it in the first place.

take Brink, by Splash Damage. sure they could have done better with the game but they understood. No shooter players want to have to reearn or rebuy shit

These are the people who made Enemy Territory and ET:Quake Wars. They understood people liked XP save Servers purely to end that crap and so built it right into Brink.

[Malorn]

Originally Posted by Forsaken One

No shooter players want to have to reearn or rebuy shit

While you may have issue there's no need to invoke a silent majority to make your case. As mentioned before counter-strike is an obvious example that counteracts that statement. I also like the concept, and I'm a shooter player.

Even Unreal Tournament had some form of this mechanic with having certain weapons on spawn rates, so not everyoen can run around with a flak cannon, but if you dominated the area where it spawned then yeah you could have a flak cannon. Sometimes you had to make do with less-ideal weapons but that's no bideal.

Its the same sort of thing. Lots of people like and play UT, and Counter-Strike is a revolutionary game that was and still is extremely popular. CS:Source is still in the top 20 sellers on Steam even now.

[Forsaken One]

Originally Posted by Malorn

stuff

So you only talk about the one point that yet still doesn't help your case even through I proved your CS point was pretty much BS?

As I see it, noting 2 REALLY old twitchtard games that have little-nothing to do with teamwork games or any modern game worth a shit I really don't see why you are talking about them.

again. there is a reason Planetside, Battlefield, Cod, Even Brink (noting a modernized game based off the fact the rebuying crap annoyed players in the older versions.) have the "caps" where they will no longer have to deal with it.

the only thing such grinding would bring to the game is assholes getting a hard on from not letting other players play how they want and decent players getting frustrated over not being able to play how and with what they want on a grand scale.

Originally Posted by Soothsayer

If there was to be some sort of one time purchase, I would want the cost of that one time upgrade to be staggeringly high, but with the potential for a pay off within something like several months later. That would be assuming that the upgrade is used pretty much every time you spawn with the class/weapon its associated with. That's a big if for me though, I don't know if its something I'd really actually want.

I do however support the ability to buy a one spawn "cheap trial" version of a upgrade to test if you'd like it. but it shouldn't be thought of the main way of getting it. maybe just a week/month of play to make it worth getting over just spamming the trial version.

[Malorn]

I can see this isn't going to have any further productivity.

I agree to disagree.

[exLupo]

Originally Posted by Forsaken One

thats all well and fine. but if the game becomes.
Player A likes to have a reddot instead of iron sight. He has put the time and resource to get the upgrade once, but now the game tell's him to go fuck himself because he doesn't have the retarded rpg money crap to buy it again, even through he already earned the right to.

Smed's said PS2 isn't going to be BF. He loves BF but this isn't that. It's clear that you haven't played EVE and are still attached to the normal, natural, human aversion to loss. Play a game that punishes failure with loss and suddenly your entire perspective on engagements changes.

The biggest downside is that you cut into your mass market appeal but if PS2 lets anyone pull basic weapons essentially for free, then zerglings can run into walls of bullets as long as their little hearts desire.

The upsides are manifold. It provides more sinks for in-game resources which, in turn, makes those resources have tangible value. Also, that same natural fear of loss forces people to be more thoughtful which elevates tactics and engagement control over who can bunnyhop the best. And lastly, it scares the living hell out of screaming children who have yet to learn to handle consequence and, I may be hoping against hope, keep them from subscribing.

It's the EVE pilot in me but I prefer playing games in which intel and planning has real benefits, where economic damage is a potent weapon and that create an atmosphere that keeps the XBOX community far, far away.

[Forsaken One]

Originally Posted by Pr0tean

Smed's said PS2 isn't going to be BF. He loves BF but this isn't that. It's clear that you haven't played EVE and are still attached to the normal, natural, human aversion to loss. Play a game that punishes failure with loss and suddenly your entire perspective on engagements changes.

Planetside also doesn't have that crap. and no, I hate RPGs even more so mmo ones so why would I ever play EVE?

the only perspective that would change would be. "this is not a real shooter, this is some RPG bullshit just without the tab alting/lock on." there for what would happen is players like me would uninstall, while the 10 year old's who enjoy RPG crap have their mommys sub because their ADD makes them not notice the retarded grind and how stupid it is.

Money does not belong in shooters. I have already made many points as to why.

here is a list of shooters with money.
Tabula Rose
Face of mankind
All points bulletin

all 3 died. 2 were resurrected as F2P. Face of mankind was only resurrected as F2P to stop the private server running the game do to the "owner of the rights" no longer supporting it.

only the kiddies will like money as it will give them E-pen. then the game will die after the kiddies had there fun and leave.


Edit: I feel like I need to remind people that upgrades DO NOT=more power. the dev.s have stated somewhere that upgrades are meant to fit things to players playstyle and as such you TRADE SOMEPOWER for the upgrade. Here is an example. You love driving a Main Battle Tank. but you want one with a flak cannon. Ok then. you can upgrade to trade your top anti infantry gun for a flak cannon. You trade power Vs infantry for power Vs sky.

upgrades are meant to personalize your stuff. NOT make it more powerful.

[Vancha]

Originally Posted by Forsaken One

So you only talk about the one point that yet still doesn't help your case even through I proved your CS point was pretty much BS?

Your rebuttal didn't change the fact that CS is a good example of a working money system in a shooter (no, people don't only use deagles and snipers). Yes, half the guns were pointless to buy, but there was a definite upgrade sequence as far as USP/Glock > Deagle/Mac10/TMP > MP5/Pump-action > AK/M4/Scout > AWP...and that's not including the decisions to pass up a better gun for armour/grenades.

I don't want to see money in Planetside either, but his point stands. Also, I love the way the person who wants the least amount of RPG elements in Planetside accused you of being unfair to RPGs. That might be a sign of something.

[exLupo]

Well Forsaken, it sounds like PS2 is probably not the game for you. As Smed has gone on record about using resources to purchase add-ons, you're pretty much out of luck. PS1 is still here for your enjoyment as are many, many other fine FPS games that don't have robust and viable economic systems.

Originally Posted by Forsaken One

Money does not belong in shooters. I have already made many points as to why.

here is a list of shooters with money.
Tabula Rose
Face of mankind
All points bulletin
[/COLOR]

While I can't comment on FoM, I do know about APB's stumble and have intimate knowledge of the death of Tabula Rasa. APB was a jab at a new market and marketing style. Combine that with problems with Realtime Worlds itself and the game was set on a rocky course. APB closed because it's producer closed, not because the producer closed it. It's akin to SWG being shut down because SOE closed its doors instead of how things are happening now, a conscious choice by the producer.

Tabula Rasa, on the other hand, was a catastrophe years in the making. First and foremost, it was designed as a strange music/fantasy hybrid RPG. Eventually, under backer pressure for a more genre-friendly game, it was reforged into a fairly generic sci-fantasy shooter. The problem with this was that they had to recreate every bit of content from scratch. In the months before the game launched, the only content past mid-game was the physical world. Nothing else was finished. Plot, character trees, powers and even weapon types were, at best 50% complete. The game launched without the top third of its levels having any content and at least two classes had no progression past mid levels. The top end literally did not exist. Tabula Rasa died because it was launched in a horribly unfinished manner. And, on top of everything else you say...

"...has put the time and resource to get the upgrade once, but now the game tell's him to go fuck himself because he doesn't have the retarded rpg money crap to buy it again, even through he already earned the right to."

This was something that TR did not require of the player. There was no weapon damage or loss system, just upgrades and varying elemental types. In all honesty, it bears absolutely no resemblance to the system planned for PS2.

I really should ignore your posts but I can't resist this nagging urge to do everything in my power to stop the spread of misinformation be it from lies or, in your case, simple ignorance.

[Forsaken One]

Originally Posted by Pr0tean

"...has put the time and resource to get the upgrade once, but now the game tell's him to go fuck himself because he doesn't have the retarded rpg money crap to buy it again, even through he already earned the right to."

This was something that TR did not require of the player. There was no weapon damage or loss system, just upgrades and varying elemental types. In all honesty, it bears absolutely no resemblance to the system planned for PS2.

Cost's of ammo.
Cost's of repairs.

to me the fact that you don't remember that voided pretty much everything you said in that post.

Hell I remember when ammo costs were so bullshit it was much more cost effective just to run up to enemy's and bash them with the weapon.While the weapon would go into disrepair faster it saved a lot of money on ammo.

[exLupo]

Originally Posted by Forsaken One

Cost's of ammo.
Cost's of repairs.

to me the fact that you don't remember that voided pretty much everything you said in that post.

I quoted your complaint about upgrades and having to purchase it again and that's all I was talking about. Please don't troll.

[Forsaken One]

Originally Posted by Pr0tean

I quoted your complaint about upgrades and having to purchase it again and that's all I was talking about. Please don't troll.

please note that ammo and/or repair costs would still fall under "paying for it more then once and keeping it forever."

I'm not the one trolling.

[Hamma]

Forsaken One,

As soon as you have a valid argument to make please post again, otherwise stop posting. You are simply saying stuff doesn't belong in the game because YOU don't think it does. With no real facts other than "because gamers don't want it" how do you figure? I know I want it.

PlanetSide 2 is working to break the mold of what a traditional FPS and even an MMOFPS is. If you want to compete on the LONG TERM the things they are talking about are pretty much required. A MMO based on basic shooter concepts is not going to work in the long term, look at how often they release new BF games.

And APB failed because it was a horribly mismanaged game with horrible balance.

Also, never say deagle again.. it's Desert Eagle.

[Tool]

Originally Posted by Hamma

Forsaken One,

As soon as you have a valid argument to make please post again, otherwise stop posting. You are simply saying stuff doesn't belong in the game because YOU don't think it does. With no real facts other than "because gamers don't want it" how do you figure? I know I want it.

PlanetSide 2 is working to break the mold of what a traditional FPS and even an MMOFPS is. If you want to compete on the LONG TERM the things they are talking about are pretty much required. A MMO based on basic shooter concepts is not going to work in the long term, look at how often they release new BF games.

And APB failed because it was a horribly mismanaged game with horrible balance.

Also, never say deagle again.. it's Desert Eagle.

Hamma-Slammed


A few people here share that same mentality of presenting personal opinion as factual information with obvious bias. Although usually without repeated insults and generalizations.

[Forsaken One]

Originally Posted by Hamma

Forsaken One,

As soon as you have a valid argument to make please post again, otherwise stop posting. You are simply saying stuff doesn't belong in the game because YOU don't think it does. With no real facts other than "because gamers don't want it" how do you figure? I know I want it.

small list of facts.

Originally Posted by Forsaken One

There are MANY ways to use denial of resources without useing any of the bullshit from my "list of bullshit"

PS1 has many. base full shielding. door shielding, base turrets, pretty much any module from the caves. level of a base's turret, etc. all this and more can have to do with the "empire's resources" without giving a player the limit of "damn it, I want that and can't use it."

fact

Originally Posted by Forsaken One

we are talking a BIG difference between RPG players and shooter players.

Edit: I feel the need to explain this better. MMORPGs are boring as shit. there-for a forever grind is needed to keep the game going and exciting. FPS games are backwards to this. Shooters are exciting to play and as such shooter players want to get the grind out of the way as soon as they can so they never have to deal with the bullshit again, understand?

pretty much fact to an extent as thats why shooters have all but gotten rid of permagrind. CoD does give people who would enjoy it a choice through, but that choice won't effect others.

Originally Posted by Forsaken One

People talk about modernizing Planetside. The fact is that crap for Shooters is the past as no one wanted to deal with it in the first place.

take Brink, by Splash Damage. sure they could have done better with the game but they understood. No shooter players want to have to reearn or rebuy shit

These are the people who made Enemy Territory and ET:Quake Wars. They understood people liked XP save Servers purely to end that crap and so built it right into Brink.

Fact. while the term "no one" may have been a little pushing it MANY don't. I'll happyly support a "CoD grind restart" button for those that want it.

Originally Posted by Forsaken One

again. there is a reason Planetside, Battlefield, Cod, Even Brink (noting a modernized game based off the fact the rebuying crap annoyed players in the older versions.) have the "caps" where they will no longer have to deal with it.

the only thing such grinding would bring to the game is assholes getting a hard on from not letting other players play how they want and decent players getting frustrated over not being able to play how and with what they want on a grand scale.

Fact. through I'm useing the term assholes and "people who enjoy causing grief for others" interchangeably

Originally Posted by Forsaken One

Money does not belong in shooters. I have already made many points as to why.

here is a list of shooters with money.
Tabula Rose
Face of mankind
All points bulletin

all 3 died. 2 were resurrected as F2P. Face of mankind was only resurrected as F2P to stop the private server running the game do to the "owner of the rights" no longer supporting it.

Edit: I feel like I need to remind people that upgrades DO NOT=more power. the dev.s have stated somewhere that upgrades are meant to fit things to players playstyle and as such you TRADE SOMEPOWER for the upgrade. Here is an example. You love driving a Main Battle Tank. but you want one with a flak cannon. Ok then. you can upgrade to trade your top anti infantry gun for a flak cannon. You trade power Vs infantry for power Vs sky.

upgrades are meant to personalize your stuff. NOT make it more powerful.

Fact.

Originally Posted by Hamma

And APB failed because it was a horribly mismanaged game with horrible balance.

The game wanted CS style balance. That's why the smgs were nerfed hard and the sniper like gun was overpowered. CS style balance talk falls under a different thread so I'll drop that here.

-----------

I'll add one more fact. 3 "mmoshooters" used money. 3 "mmoshooters" died. Yet Planetside which did not use money lived. there is a reason for that.