Why I quit PS1 - Page 4

Lopshot · 2012-07-11, 10:29 PM

Originally Posted by Snipefrag

The difference is that CE is an inventory item that you can simply relay if it gets jammered/EMP, there is no prerequisite beyond the cert which in theory you can get at BR6. The CR4/5 EMP has taken a hell of a long time to earn and can only be used infrequently by a commander. The problem is when too many people gain that rank and EMP's and OS's are going off every 30 seconds.

You're hope of having them removed is a pipe dream, just because you don't want to relay CE every now and then. Be realistic and push for a limited amount of commanders per server at a time.. Something more like the WoW arena rankings where you have to work to maintain your Command rank by continually leading.

Perfectly said "Something more like the WoW arena rankings where you have to work to maintain your Command rank by continually leading."

Noxey · 2012-07-12, 07:20 AM

Originally Posted by Buggsy

frontal assault can get boring after a while.

Mix it up abit man, get your brown wings and learn to fly

MCYRook · 2012-07-12, 09:00 AM

Originally Posted by Snipefrag

There is very little difference in this case between 2/3 jammer nades and a Cr5 EMP

So why do we need the EMP then?

There is a difference, and it's in the effort/reward ratio and the speed.

To lay a sizable mine field and a few spits and motions, say at a base entrance, requires probably two full CE loadouts. The Engy grabs his loadout, runs out there, lays each piece of CE (being very vulnerable while doing so), runs back in to resupply, and lays the rest. Total time effort: something like 1-2 mins.

To clear all that stuff, you need much less time even with Jammers. You'd probably throw like half a dozen of them in this case. Total time effort: like 10-20 secs.

EMP blast, it's as quick and easy as pulling the CUD and clicking on "EMP". Total time effort: about 3 secs.

Now, the reward isn't the same for both sides. The CE guy can hope to get a juicy kill or two from his stuff, while the attacker guy just wants to get from A to B without being blown or shot to pieces by auto-attacking minions. Also, most people don't enjoy when they have to fight more CE than actual people, so that's a point as well to keep gameplay fun.

But still, EMP ist just pretty damn powerful. Because even if you can't expect to get many kills from CE, the least you would hope for is to delay your opponent somewhat. But with EMP, even the delay is almost neglegible. And as has been pointed out, the EMP is a hard counter to CE, but cannot be countered in return. Its only downside is its cooldown (which isn't long either, 20 mins) - and just as with OS, balancing very powerful things just with a lengthy cooldown is almost never a good design choice. Doesn't matter if many people have it or not, although that naturally makes it worse.

Metalsheep · 2012-07-12, 11:15 AM

I don't see anything wrong with the EMP or the OS. With the sheer amount of CE in the game, something like the EMP is necessary. You can't expect every player to carry a dozen Jammers with him to counter all the CE people lay.

Also, on a backdoor attack, its not very bright to roll up in ground vehicles. The CE will crush them. Most organized droppers will fly in with a Phantasm or Gal, land on the WALL above the backdoor, kill your CE or EMP, then jump down and hack the door. In eiather situation, your CE at BD was moot. I would take a group of guys 3 seconds to clear it all regardless of EMP. If the guys managed to roll up to your BD in a ground vehicle, get out, have a small firefight with you, THEN EMP. You didnt place your CE very well, it should have wrecked their truck before it arrived.

Also, when placing mines behind trees to catch people by suprise, its better to also lay a spitfire ontop of the mine. Proximity mines dont really hurt infantry, but a detonating spitfire is an instant kill in a large radius. Also keeps Data Corrupters from hacking your spits. It simply sounded like the squad that you were fighting were just better organized. Not everyone carrys a CuD on them at all times. Usually only a few people in an organized attack keep their CuDs or bring them with. A CuD is useless indoors, you could have exta ammo or an ACE or something better used.

The EMP is a hard counter to CE and Vehicles (temporarily). He cant fight back with his CuD out, shoot him. If he had friends protecting him while he EMPd, they were using superior tactics.

The OS also is a simple counter... move. Don't stand in the OS and you wont die. OS's were designed to take out hard, immobile, well defended emplacements that are typically hard or impossible to destroy conventionally. Like a CE'd AMS. If you dont want your AMS OS'd, dont CE it, and move it every so often so enemies cant get a bead on it. CE just makes your AMS easier to find, if an enemy stumbles on it and detonates your mines, it hurts your AMS and shows its location because the cloaking fails. Another decent counter to an OS is a Sensor Disruptor, it doesnt stop the OS from coming down, but it makes it difficult to target your AMS, since they cant just pop Reviel Enemies and see the stream of guys coming from your AMS. They actually have to go looking for your AMS or guess. OS's dont really rack up kills anymore, infantry move out of the way too fast. Theyre mostly used to take out Phalanx Turrets, Loadstars and AMS's and sometimes BFRs.

Crator · 2012-07-12, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by Metalsheep

I don't see anything wrong with the EMP or the OS. With the sheer amount of CE in the game, something like the EMP is necessary. You can't expect every player to carry a dozen Jammers with him to counter all the CE people lay.

I do. And there's usually enough space to carry at least one pack of EMP nades in most load-outs. And that'll usually be enough to take out the CE in one area. I carry more then one emp nade pack more to combat vehicles then to effectively take out all CE in an area.

Originally Posted by Metalsheep

Also, on a backdoor attack, its not very bright to roll up in ground vehicles. The CE will crush them. Most organized droppers will fly in with a Phantasm or Gal, land on the WALL above the backdoor, kill your CE or EMP, then jump down and hack the door. In eiather situation, your CE at BD was moot. I would take a group of guys 3 seconds to clear it all regardless of EMP. If the guys managed to roll up to your BD in a ground vehicle, get out, have a small firefight with you, THEN EMP. You didnt place your CE very well, it should have wrecked their truck before it arrived.

Also, when placing mines behind trees to catch people by suprise, its better to also lay a spitfire ontop of the mine. Proximity mines dont really hurt infantry, but a detonating spitfire is an instant kill in a large radius. Also keeps Data Corrupters from hacking your spits. It simply sounded like the squad that you were fighting were just better organized. Not everyone carrys a CuD on them at all times. Usually only a few people in an organized attack keep their CuDs or bring them with. A CuD is useless indoors, you could have exta ammo or an ACE or something better used.

The EMP is a hard counter to CE and Vehicles (temporarily). He cant fight back with his CuD out, shoot him. If he had friends protecting him while he EMPd, they were using superior tactics.

All good points.

Originally Posted by Metalsheep

The OS also is a simple counter... move. Don't stand in the OS and you wont die. OS's were designed to take out hard, immobile, well defended emplacements that are typically hard or impossible to destroy conventionally. Like a CE'd AMS. If you dont want your AMS OS'd, dont CE it, and move it every so often so enemies cant get a bead on it. CE just makes your AMS easier to find, if an enemy stumbles on it and detonates your mines, it hurts your AMS and shows its location because the cloaking fails. Another decent counter to an OS is a Sensor Disruptor, it doesnt stop the OS from coming down, but it makes it difficult to target your AMS, since they cant just pop Reviel Enemies and see the stream of guys coming from your AMS. They actually have to go looking for your AMS or guess. OS's dont really rack up kills anymore, infantry move out of the way too fast. Theyre mostly used to take out Phalanx Turrets, Loadstars and AMS's and sometimes BFRs.

Easier said then done imo. But all good points. I've learned that it isn't very smart to put mines inside an AMS cloak bubble in situations where there is heavy fighting going on. I'd rather stay and protect my AMS and try and move it if I can.

TIP: For an AMS driver, to prevent other combat engineers from putting mines in your cloak bubble, cause they don't know better, put mines not too far outside of the cloak bubble so others can't put it inside.

Most of the time, even when you move it, it's going to be seen while moving and get blown up anyways. But, I do use mines inside AMS cloak bubble when I'm deploying it in a location that doesn't have much activity. This is to help alarm me that an enemy (usually a cloaker) finds the AMS so I have a chance to react. This allows me to scout further away from my AMS.

Metalsheep · 2012-07-12, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by Crator

I do. And there's usually enough space to carry at least one pack of EMP nades in most load-outs. And that'll usually be enough to take out the CE in one area. I carry more then one emp nade pack more to combat vehicles then to effectively take out all CE in an area.

A single Combat engineer can palce 20 mines and 10 Spitfires. And a Fortification Engineer can palce 25 mines and 15 spits. (I think thats accurate, i havent CE'd in a while)

BUT, 3 jammer grenades is nowhere near enough to take all that out. Even if your just pushing BD, you're likely to deal with at least 5-10 mines and 3-5 spitfires. Assuming only a single Fort Engi CE'd the base. (8-10 mines and 5 spits per gate.)

I feel that the sheer volume of CE calls for a counter that can clear it out. The CuD EMP does just that. Personally i hate the EMP on the Sundy-Bus more than the EMP from the CUD. Its basically a CR5 EMP that you can pop at any time without delay, and it recharges in what... 30ish seconds? the CuD EMP takes 20 minits. Also its 3 cert points that you can drive in Rexo and pull without Tech. Not to mention it carrys the same amount of people as a Galaxy, sports 6 guns AND can pierce a bases Shield Mod. (And the horn, who could ever forget that horn?) Though the guns require other players, the EMP does not, and you can just pull another sundy in 3-5 minits.

The CuD EMP requires you to earn at least CR3, but even then it has a really small radius, you need to get to 4 or 5 to get a wide range on it. While it does defeat the work of a single Combat Engineer, it also took that person taking the time to earn CR 3-5, happen to be carrying his CuD on him and has to take the time to position himself, use his CuD and set off the EMP. If you spread out your CE a bit, the EMP will only really destroy mines, mines arent even dangerous to Infantry. It stuns spits and motion trackers.

Really though, CE at the backdoor is usually just a losing situation, its only really there to slow down attackers and alert the base to when the BD is being attacked. It will almost always get wrecked very quickly. Now, CE well placed at gate entrances and in the woods/rocks/whatever around the base is what gets you kills. Or random CE nests in the middle of nowhere. You gotta get creative if you want your CE to do more than just delay the enemy.

Wow, that was longer than i thought it would be.

Crator · 2012-07-12, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by Metalsheep

A single Combat engineer can palce 20 mines and 10 Spitfires. And a Fortification Engineer can palce 25 mines and 15 spits. (I think thats accurate, i havent CE'd in a while)

BUT, 3 jammer grenades is nowhere near enough to take all that out. Even if your just pushing BD, you're likely to deal with at least 5-10 mines and 3-5 spitfires. Assuming only a single Fort Engi CE'd the base. (8-10 mines and 5 spits per gate.)

I tried to use my words carefully. Such as "usually be enough to take out CE in one area". I'd grab more emp nade packs or a punisher with EMP nades and REXO with a Phenoix if I knew I was trying to go specifically to kill a lot of CE. Although, I've changed my view on punisher emp nades as of late. Having more then two ammo types for the secondary gun on the punisher kinda sucks. Not easy to switch to the type you want with too many types in the load-out. So I switch my punisher nads to reg emp nades in that load-out.

Originally Posted by Metalsheep

Personally i hate the EMP on the Sundy-Bus more than the EMP from the CUD. Its basically a CR5 EMP that you can pop at any time without delay, and it recharges in what... 30ish seconds? the CuD EMP takes 20 minits. Also its 3 cert points that you can drive in Rexo and pull without Tech. Not to mention it carrys the same amount of people as a Galaxy, sports 6 guns AND can pierce a bases Shield Mod. (And the horn, who could ever forget that horn?) Though the guns require other players, the EMP does not, and you can just pull another sundy in 3-5 minits.

Yes, and yet you don't see the Sundy-bus all that often. Why is that? Couldn't be because it's top speed and torque sucks donkey balls, could it? The top speed/torque, along with all other restrictions... Also, a bang bus has a big profile vs. a ground trooper. More likely to get blown up before it gets close.

A counter that a player could throw or launch at the bang bus which stops it in it tracks for x amount of seconds could help a lot with that issue though....

Metalsheep · 2012-07-12, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by Crator

I tried to use my words carefully. Such as "usually be enough to take out CE in one area". I'd grab more emp nade packs or a punisher with EMP nades and REXO with a Phenoix if I knew I was trying to go specifically to kill a lot of CE. Although, I've changed my view on punisher emp nades as of late. Having more then two ammo types for the secondary gun on the punisher kinda sucks. Not easy to switch to the type you want with too many types in the load-out. So I switch my punisher nads to reg emp nades in that load-out.

Yes, and yet you don't see the Sundy-bus all that often. Why is that? Couldn't be because it's top speed and torque sucks donkey balls, could it? The top speed/torque, along with all other restrictions... Also, a bang bus has a big profile vs. a ground trooper. More likely to get blown up before it gets close.

A counter that a player could throw or launch at the bang bus which stops it in it tracks for x amount of seconds could help a lot with that issue though....

The top speed is alright for a vehicle of its size, but its definately lacking in torque. Alot of vehicles in Planetside are, though. Cant handle hills or dips at all. You do see Sundys regularly, though. Typically theyre just a suicide EMP into a courtyard by a single driver. So you dont typically see them for long, before they explode. They have woefully inadequate armor for its purpose, especially against CE Mines, ironically. Using the EMP usually gets 1/4-1/2 your armor blown off.

Also, the Tactical Resonance Area Protection (TRAP) is the only way to really stop one, if you place them correctly in the gates. CAnt really place enough of them close enough togather to fully deny access, though. They should have allowed clusters of 3, rather than 2.

If i carry the Pwnisher, i usually keep a set of both Frag and EMP grenades, typically i dont use the EMP nades unless im checking for boomers, or fighting vehicles. But you do get alot more grenades for less space when carrying them with the pwnisher.

MCYRook · 2012-07-13, 04:50 AM

Originally Posted by Metalsheep

Another decent counter to an OS is a Sensor Disruptor, it doesnt stop the OS from coming down, but it makes it difficult to target your AMS, since they cant just pop Reviel Enemies and see the stream of guys coming from your AMS. They actually have to go looking for your AMS or guess.

Wrong, Sensor Disruptors only disrupt radar detection, not Reveal. Nothing beats Reveal Enemies.

ringring · 2012-07-13, 05:31 AM

Meh, I often lay my mines and spits.

Mostly the reason is to make things more difficult for the enemy and more advantageous for me/my squad and empire.

Often, very often in fact, I don't lay them to get kills. I put them down as an early warning device (who thinks early warning devices shouldn't be in the game).

Namely, if I think NC might attack Naum via a cave link, I'll often go and lay CE, firstly as a deterrance and secondly as something to generate hotspots (hopefully) that I can respond to.

If you're defending a base, put some at the bd, if it disappears go and find out why and kill the lttle beggar who did it.

Even tho I don't do it for kills I usually end up getting a few.

In short, CE is good, emp is good, it all adds to the gaiety of planetside.

MCYRook · 2012-07-13, 06:13 AM

Originally Posted by ringring

Often, very often in fact, I don't lay them to get kills. I put them down as an early warning device

That's very true, but it doesn't really pertain to the EMP ability. If you arrive at an empty cont and find your target base CE'd, you don't want to use an EMP on it. You're (usually) not under immediate time pressure, so why put it on cooldown, and you don't want to accidentally kill a spit, because that would cause a hotspot.

who thinks early warning devices shouldn't be in the game

Nobody in this thread as far as I can tell.

Buggsy · 2012-07-13, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by ringring

Meh, I often lay my mines and spits.

Mostly the reason is to make things more difficult for the enemy and more advantageous for me/my squad and empire.

Often, very often in fact, I don't lay them to get kills. I put them down as an early warning device (who thinks early warning devices shouldn't be in the game).

Namely, if I think NC might attack Naum via a cave link, I'll often go and lay CE, firstly as a deterrance and secondly as something to generate hotspots (hopefully) that I can respond to.

If you're defending a base, put some at the bd, if it disappears go and find out why and kill the lttle beggar who did it.

Even tho I don't do it for kills I usually end up getting a few.

In short, CE is good, emp is good, it all adds to the gaiety of planetside.

Yeah they're great early warning devices, dittos.

Originally Posted by Metalsheep

I don't see anything wrong with the EMP or the OS. With the sheer amount of CE in the game, something like the EMP is necessary. You can't expect every player to carry a dozen Jammers with him to counter all the CE people lay.

That's like saying you can't expect every player to carry around Anti Vehicle weapons. I quit a long time ago before players were able to cert everything. What's max BattleRank now? 35?

When I was playing you couldn't cert everything, so CE wasn't everywhere like it is today. You couldn't cert everything, and everyone didn't have 5 alt characters with CR5; people played differently, the game was different.

Originally Posted by MCYRook

So why do we need the EMP then?

There is a difference, and it's in the effort/reward ratio and the speed.

To lay a sizable mine field and a few spits and motions, say at a base entrance, requires probably two full CE loadouts. The Engy grabs his loadout, runs out there, lays each piece of CE (being very vulnerable while doing so), runs back in to resupply, and lays the rest. Total time effort: something like 1-2 mins.

To clear all that stuff, you need much less time even with Jammers. You'd probably throw like half a dozen of them in this case. Total time effort: like 10-20 secs.

EMP blast, it's as quick and easy as pulling the CUD and clicking on "EMP". Total time effort: about 3 secs.

Now, the reward isn't the same for both sides. The CE guy can hope to get a juicy kill or two from his stuff, while the attacker guy just wants to get from A to B without being blown or shot to pieces by auto-attacking minions. Also, most people don't enjoy when they have to fight more CE than actual people, so that's a point as well to keep gameplay fun.

But still, EMP ist just pretty damn powerful. Because even if you can't expect to get many kills from CE, the least you would hope for is to delay your opponent somewhat. But with EMP, even the delay is almost neglegible. And as has been pointed out, the EMP is a hard counter to CE, but cannot be countered in return. Its only downside is its cooldown (which isn't long either, 20 mins) - and just as with OS, balancing very powerful things just with a lengthy cooldown is almost never a good design choice. Doesn't matter if many people have it or not, although that naturally makes it worse.

CUD abilities destroy player creativity, destroys tactics, destroys options; push a button "weeeee", where's the fun in that?

Originally Posted by Noxey

Mix it up abit man, get your brown wings and learn to fly

That's just frontal assault in the air. What's a "brown wing"?

Originally Posted by Snipefrag

The difference is that CE is an inventory item that you can simply relay if it gets jammered/EMP, there is no prerequisite beyond the cert which in theory you can get at BR6. The CR4/5 EMP has taken a hell of a long time to earn and can only be used infrequently by a commander. The problem is when too many people gain that rank and EMP's and OS's are going off every 30 seconds.

Your hope of having them removed is a pipe dream, just because you don't want to relay CE every now and then. Be realistic and push for a limited amount of commanders per server at a time.. Something more like the WoW arena rankings where you have to work to maintain your Command rank by continually leading.

You mean more grinding for I-win buttons.

So you think players should GRIND COMMAND RANK, and not actually command. Yes that's another problem with I-win CUD abilities, it tempts players to GRIND COMMAND RANK and not actually command.

Anyone who thinks CR5's are "commanders" are kidding themselves. They aren't "commanders", they are grinders who have an additional set of weapons to play with: I-win buttons.

Players GRINDING for COMMAND RANK also warps the game for everyone else. Player GRINDING for COMMAND RANK only concern themselves with the final hack, not having a good battle, so you get lots of cheese. Don't deny it.

Originally Posted by Snipefrag

Orbital strikes actual enhance gameplay,

CUD abilities cheapen gameplay, and that includes the OS.

Rodel · 2012-07-13, 06:52 PM

Originally Posted by Buggsy

And for the 100th time, there is no counter to the OS, EMP OS, or mini OS.

So you encountered a squad using teamwork with multiple specializations and you thought you could delay them by only being an engineer... isn't the counter for an EOS generally to not be an engineer. Personally I always set up decoy mines and SFs to draw away the EOS. Buggsy, they just played it better than you there.

There are counters for these things. You just failed.

Buggsy · 2012-07-13, 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by Rodel

So you encountered a squad using teamwork with multiple specializations and you thought you could delay them by only being an engineer... isn't the counter for an EOS generally to not be an engineer. Personally I always set up decoy mines and SFs to draw away the EOS. Buggsy, they just played it better than you there.

There are counters for these things. You just failed.

Wrong, pushing an I-win button cheapens game play for everyone, including the button-pushers...and there's no counter to any of the CUD I-win abilities.

Rodel · 2012-07-13, 07:03 PM

Things you could have done-
Tank + engineer.
Your own orbital strike.
Liberator.
A friend
Boomers
not concentrating all your engineering together

It was a very good deployment of resources but your acting like engineering is a win button.