"Speeding it up"

[Gonefshn]

Originally Posted by MacXXcaM

Agreed. Why would I want to play as tank driver if I feared every inf sneaking around the corner? I want to feel massive and invincible until I find a good match (=enemy tank).

Also where's the roleplaying fun if in a squad everyone can just open fire on a tank without having to fear its superiority to ordinary foot soldiers?
If I'm a squad leader I want to order my anti tank soldier to take it down while the rest of us gives him cover.

Thank you.
If they put so much emphasis on a class system for infantry what is the difference when it comes to vehicles? Really in a basic way being in an MBT is as much a "class" as being a LA or Medic. Why do people feel everything should be able to counter everything else??? Tanks should DESTROY infantry 1 on 1 unless the pilot is an absolute idiot. You shouldn't be able to kill a tank as a soldier, you should have to rely on the armor columns of your fellow team mates. Each vehicle, soldier, and aircraft should fit a role and should have to rely on each others capabilities to survive. When a tank rolls in infantry should duck and cover. they should have to call in aid from their own MBTs or rely on numbers to overwhelm the tank.

[Dreamcast]

The TTK is perfect....Killzone 2 clone in TTK and gunplay.

As for how fast it is to get to action..Im not sure but it looks good so far...I guess if it shouldn't be one second respond are you spawn right in to action but I have to see how it is in the beta.

[moosepoop]

judging from the alpha videos the ttk is not below bf3, its just as fast. i think the ttk needs to be lowered. not neccesarily to a snail crawl like planetside 1, but still need to be lower, otherwise it would be unplayable in large pop situations.

[Bags]

When it enters beta with A LOT OF PEOPLE PLAYING, I imagine they're realize their current TTKs, at least for the tanks, are ridiculously low.

[JPalmer]

I'll wait until beta. I can't judge the infantry vs tank argument because that guy in that tank did not have a squad of people around him working as a team. If I was in a squad with my friends in that situation they would had started shooting TB when he was falling from the sky.

Can't judge the TTK either because the map was being played like it was FFA, there wasn't a frontline and the game probably plays a lot different when there is one. And I like fast TTK, you can't make mistakes. Call fast ttk casual as you want, but if you make one mistake you are dead. Can't say the same for PS1 TTK. Slower is the more casual.

[Bromaxulon]

Originally Posted by Sturmhardt

Well that is what different classes are for. If you wear the heavy armor, you are supposed to kick light infantrys asses in 1on1 straight duels. Light classes have other advantages (speed, weapons for higher distance with less recoil etc) and obviously you were not able to play them out so the other guy just killed you. A good Shooter plays like Chess and you have to think what you can beat with your current equipment and what might be not suitable to try. Thats what makes it tactical.
Onehitkills make tactics unimportant while longer fights make tactics and skills crucial to success. Thats why I like longer battles.

Another poster pointed out what you missed from my post so I won't rehash that.

Most here that faster ttk will eliminate the "tactical" elements from the game. This is quite untrue, it just changes the tactical style.

What I mean by this is that things like suppress and flank and other modern infantry tactics will be much more valid. It becomes a game of position and movement, using infantry level tactics ( bounding overwatch etc) and less about spamming medpacks and carrying the right implants.

Sure most modern tactics worked in the original ps, it was a deep game in that sense, but when using sound tactics to get the jump on your opponent don't work because he has +1 armor or can hit f1 faster or just duck around a corner and heal(all infantry had med app and armor reps in ps1) the game feels less like epic advanced warfare and more like a traditional mmo.

Faster ttk and the improved gunplay will make battles even more engaging and tactical. You will have to think before you move because if you don't you die, much like a real battlefield and a lot more like chess then your example is.

[Gonefshn]

Originally Posted by Bromaxulon

Another poster pointed out what you missed from my post so I won't rehash that.

Most here that faster ttk will eliminate the "tactical" elements from the game. This is quite untrue, it just changes the tactical style.

What I mean by this is that things like suppress and flank and other modern infantry tactics will be much more valid. It becomes a game of position and movement, using infantry level tactics ( bounding overwatch etc) and less about spamming medpacks and carrying the right implants.

Sure most modern tactics worked in the original ps, it was a deep game in that sense, but when using sound tactics to get the jump on your opponent don't work because he has +1 armor or can hit f1 faster or just duck around a corner and heal(all infantry had med app and armor reps in ps1) the game feels less like epic advanced warfare and more like a traditional mmo.

Faster ttk and the improved gunplay will make battles even more engaging and tactical. You will have to think before you move because if you don't you die, much like a real battlefield and a lot more like chess then your example is.

I agree with this post. This is part of the reason I can dig the faster TTK in games like BF3. Survivability becomes more about the choices you make then being a numbers game. It also gives players a better chance of getting kills without taking damage themselves, meaning a good player can take out more than one guy at a time if he is good enough and uses his environment wisely to draw people into his line of sight or into ambushes.

I do think the TTK needs to be slower a bit, ive said this before. Simply because compared to BF3 or CoD you will have so many more things going on a longer TTK will be helpful to give a slightly higher buffer for situations where you just cant keep track of everything.

I do forsee outfits being even more tactical this time around. In Planetside being out in the open was totally fine. If you had cover close by you could easily run behind it when under fire and repair. I like the idea that you need to be inside cover to be safe, popping out only to move to new cover, take some shots, or get a gauge on the surroundings. A good outfit can really make some cool strategies with this style.

I still think this doesn't apply to tanks though. You can't covertly play as an MBT and using cover is an afterthought mostly. Tanks need to retain a long TTK so they feel as powerful as they need to be.

[NCLynx]

In TBs video the TTK looked a LITTLE bit high to me, but it not even that much. Everything else looked fine.

[Raymac]

The original Planetside always felt slow and clunky to me. I like the idea that it will be sped up a little and smoothed out. Obviously we know it's not going to be like Tribes or anything, but there was plenty of room to speed up the game. For TTK, the dev's have repeatedly said the goal will be between BFBC2 and BF3 which sounds good to me. That goal can be reached with some minor tweeks through testing.

Also, I'm tired of hearing how every criticism about the game will "kill teamwork". You can completely debate something about the game without playing the "kills teamwork" card. If they remove squads, outfits, or chat, THEN you can complain about teamwork getting killed, otherwise, just choose a different argument that actually holds water.

[Bags]

Originally Posted by Raymac

Also, I'm tired of hearing how every criticism about the game will "kill teamwork". You can completely debate something about the game without playing the "kills teamwork" card. If they remove squads, outfits, or chat, THEN you can complain about teamwork getting killed, otherwise, just choose a different argument that actually holds water.

Jump pads kill teamwork! Classes kill teamwork! Three continents at launch kills teamwork!

[Kurtz]

Fast gameplay and MMO do not go together well. There needs to be downtime in between. Nobody can keep a fast twitch playstyle up for too long. I played BF2 and COD competitively and was always best coming off a break. 2 hours of playing and I was slowing down and burning out. Having watched the gameplay videos the devs are either terrible or were told to stand around and let Higby shoot at them. The gameplay I have seen will not represent the gameplay we will see at beta/launch. I will actually be much better at PS2 than I was at PS1 simply because PS2 is more like the games I am good at.

So by no means do I want a slow TTK because I don't feel like I can keep up. I don't want a fast TTK because I want to ENJOY the moments of an MMO.

Devs need to remember that the camaraderie (and immersion) was created ON THE WAY TO BATTLE. In PS1 and WW2Online, the best times were in the Gal (or transport of choice) on the way to the battle. It gets the adrenaline up to be helplessly in the back of a transport that could get shot down or blown up at any point in time only to jump out and go from quiet to chaos at the drop of a hat. Pressure on the driver to deliver the troops, etc... great game tension all around. Spawning on teh SL takes the need for this away.

BF3 Control points at a base make the fight too spread out and will not concentrate enemies to a reduced number of entrance points. Add jump jets and Luanch pads and this game will be BF3 meets unreal tourney.

Also the ability to spawn off a team mate indoors will completely undo the idea of the orginal game. You needed to run from point a to point b to get inside. Usually if your AMS was blown or you died after a GAL drop you had to regroup and redeploy.

There was something great about getting rid of an enemy AMS and hunting for hidden ones that were somewhat further away. Equally fun on the attacking side was regrouping after your attack was thwarted.

the TTK on the MBT was WAAAAAAY too fast. Add in the gunner is now the driver and the tanks will be useless. Back in the day good Tank gunners and drivers were a highly sought after team. A good driver kept at the fringe of the fight without diving in too far. A good gunner kept enemies at bay and took out the competition. 10 hits would take out a tank as opposed to BF3s 2. No one will take the 2nd gunner spot unless they're infy looking for temporary cover from air.

TTK is the one thing that concerns me about this game. I don't want it to be too slow like PS1 but BF3 is a little too fast for a MMOFPS IMO.

I like WW2 online and PS2 because you feared Tanks and Planes.

In BF3 planes have no bombs...its laughable.
Tanks are a joke.

In PS1 you crapped in your pants if you saw a tank. Infy with a decimator could only keep a tank at bay for so long. You were pretty much dead meat.

Thats they way war is thats the way this game should be.

I remember very specifically that Planetside really emulated real war in the way that you had to control the air first in hostile territory if you wanted to win (just like IRL), the way you countered Air was putting up good dog fighters yourself and some AA. When the defenders countered with AA you brought in the tanks (to clean up the max units and skillguards), forcing the enemy to counter with tanks.

The point is there was a process to winning the battle that was a rock paper scissors style of game play. If one side wasn't flexible (wouldn't pull armor for example) then they lost. Period. end of fucking story.

I don't want to see a bunch of Infy fighting off Air and Tanks with a couple of Shoulder rockets and C4.

[Bags]

Originally Posted by Kurtz

pawn off a team mate indoors will completely undo the idea of the orginal game.

Whoa whoa whoa, source fucking please.

[Xyntech]

Originally Posted by Kurtz

Fast gameplay and MMO do not go together well. There needs to be downtime in between. Nobody can keep a fast twitch playstyle up for too long. I played BF2 and COD competitively and was always best coming off a break. 2 hours of playing and I was slowing down and burning out.

So take some down time. Go do something logistical for your empire that is less intense. I've played twitch shooters for many hours on end, and while I'm not the most skilled player, endurance isn't a problem for me, or a lot of other players.

I'll grant that my endurance isn't as high for a shooter as it is for an MMORPG, but MMORPG's are all about downtime and boring shit. Even when they get intense they are still pretty mundane. The are like glorified chat rooms. I think Planetside needs to focus a little more on the FPS than the MMO when it comes to pacing, or else it will miss out on its largest pool of potential players.

Set your own pace. The war wont be lost because you took it easy after an intense fight. Even the fighting itself should be possible to play at variable speeds. There were players who tried as hard as possible to rush past the slow pace of the first game, while other groups in fact played even slower than average. Everyone can still contribute. Nobody has to be left behind. Just make sure you're in an outfit that can accommodate playing at the pace you like to play at.

Faster pacing just allows the game to be more engaging for players who haven't gotten into the deeper tactical shit yet, but the very nature of the game is going to funnel them towards more team oriented play the longer they stick with the game. Hopefully having very fun shooting gameplay will help keep those players around long enough that they do start becoming more valuable team members, and not just abandon the game like PS1 was abandoned.

Originally Posted by Kurtz

The point is there was a process to winning the battle that was a rock paper scissors style of game play. If one side wasn't flexible (wouldn't pull armor for example) then they lost. Period. end of fucking story.

I have little doubt that this will still be the case in PS2, even if it's at a slightly faster pace than before. If I end up being wrong, I'll be right there with you demanding it get fixed. Combined arms was an essential part of Planetsides formula, so it certainly wouldn't be acceptable to lose that dynamic.

[Bags]

Oh, and can we stop systematically insulting everyone who doesn't hate the TTK? Thanks.

[Gonefshn]

Originally Posted by Bags

Oh, and can we stop systematically insulting everyone who doesn't hate the TTK? Thanks.

Dude, Bro. You don't hate the TTK??? WTF Bro.