The Good ole Balance Debate - Page 4

**Malorn** · 2011-07-12, 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by Volw

You ALREADY have it in planetside.

BR25 with rexo, pshield, HA + med/eng is going to wipe the floor with BR5 agile+ha. It's far more than 20% difference.

Also look at the other side of the playing field. Why would anyone play the game if PS2 BR1 would be capable to deal exactly the same damage as BR20. *Every* single MMO and vast majority of FPSes offer progression. In fact, I can't think of many multiplayer games that don't offer progression.

There's also influx of new players to all MMOs. Sure, over time they will have to make it easier for new players to catch up, but that's how it's being done. By CCP, by Blizzard, by any mmo developer.

I'm sorry but it sounds like you're trying to re-develop a wheel by removing any tangible benefits of levelling.

I asked what the point of it was, not whether the problem already existed in some form in PS.

That BR 5's HA was just as lethal as the BR 25's HA. It was not 20% better simply because that BR 25 had played the game longer.

Yes, the vet had more tools available to him, but most of those aren't useful in the few seconds of the firefight that determine who is going to win. (I explained why the Implants were generally OK up above, though I think they can improve upon that also).

The fact that all the best certs could be mixed together to create a super-grunt is well-known and that's one of the reasons PS2 is moving to a class system. I'm not particularly concerned about that problem, but I am glad they addressed it in a simple and elegant way.

Bags · 2011-07-12, 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by Malorn

I asked what the point of it was, not whether the problem already existed in some form in PS.

That BR 5's HA was just as lethal as the BR 25's HA. It was not 20% better simply because that BR 25 had played the game longer.

Yes, the vet had more tools available to him, but most of those aren't useful in the few seconds of the firefight that determine who is going to win. (I explained why the Implants were generally OK up above, though I think they can improve upon that also).

The fact that all the best certs could be mixed together to create a super-grunt is well-known and that's one of the reasons PS2 is moving to a class system. I'm not particularly concerned about that problem, but I am glad they addressed it in a simple and elegant way.

This.

I love trade offs, but not pure upgrades:

Want 10% more damage? 10% less accurate. Want 10% more range? 10% slower rof. Etc.

Volw · 2011-07-12, 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by Bags

As strange as this may sound, some people play games because they are fun.

'Some'. That's why every MMO on the market has progression along with most multiplayer games.

Also, why do you think PS devs added 'unlockable' vehicles? (Gunship etc) Because people want progression and you could as well whine that PS1 doesn't offer noobs to have the Gunship. Same argument.

MgFalcon · 2011-07-12, 05:27 PM

They better give me my Lasher with door penetrating lash-blasts, otherwise everything else is OP.

#Totallyserious

Redshift · 2011-07-12, 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by Volw

BR25 with rexo, pshield, HA + med/eng is going to wipe the floor with BR5 agile+ha. It's far more than 20% difference.

No, the BR25 is just going to be able to repair after the fight, during the fight the difference is agile Vs rexo which can go either way
(pshield can be taken out with a emp so again it's down to skill not lvl)

Bags · 2011-07-12, 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by Volw

'Some'. That's why every MMO on the market has progression along with most multiplayer games.

Also, why do you think PS devs added 'unlockable' vehicles? (Gunship etc) Because people want progression and you could as well whine that PS1 doesn't offer noobs to have the Gunship. Same argument.

I don't like the gunship.

And this isn't an RPG, this is an FPS. People like even playing fields in FPS.

Redshift · 2011-07-12, 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by Volw

'Some'. That's why every MMO on the market has progression along with most multiplayer games.

and also PS is the only MMO that is comparable to PS2 so there is no precident set for progression, it's a pure pvp game people won't much like being at a huge disadvantage against vets

Volw · 2011-07-12, 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by Malorn

I asked what the point of it was, not whether the problem already existed in some form in PS.

That BR 5's HA was just as lethal as the BR 25's HA. It was not 20% better simply because that BR 25 had played the game longer.

Yes, the vet had more tools available to him, but most of those aren't useful in the few seconds of the firefight that determine who is going to win. (I explained why the Implants were generally OK up above, though I think they can improve upon that also).

The fact that all the best certs could be mixed together to create a super-grunt is well-known and that's one of the reasons PS2 is moving to a class system. I'm not particularly concerned about that problem, but I am glad they addressed it in a simple and elegant way.

Can you please do me the courtesy of not misquoting?

BR25 with rexo, pshield, HA + med/eng is going to wipe the floor with BR5 agile+ha. It's far more than 20% difference.

I'm not comparing weapons. I'm comparing the whole 'package'. BR5 vs BR25.

Cause I do have a strange feeling rexo + pshield + HA is more powerful than agile + HA. Unless we're playing different games.

Volw · 2011-07-12, 05:40 PM

Ok, so so far, I understand having extra 100 HP via Pshield, extra armor via rexo is not advantageous at all.

Yet, upgrading your character in PS2 is going to be OP and will drive nabs away.

I'm confused. What's the difference between the two?

**Malorn** · 2011-07-12, 05:47 PM

Effective counterpoints are not misquotes.

I'm not going to argue the fact that options themselves are advantage - they are, but the options in your scenario are not the key things of consideration.

All the extra support certs a player has doesn't really matter until after the fight is over. In the end it was Rexo HA +implants vs Agile HA + no implants. Speed HA vs Armor HA. That has natural balance built into the gear. There is no 20% modifier to either player.

(implants are a separate discussion really, as I've already stated in two posts now) Extra options being advantage isn't the topic of the discussion nor was it the context of the dev quote that we are concerned about.

Options are advantage, but they aren't flat modifiers to a player's performance, which is the topic of the discussion.

And you still haven't answered the question as to why such flat modifiers are beneficial to the game.

Bags · 2011-07-12, 05:49 PM

You are implying that we think pshield is good and balanced when we don't.

Stop strawmaning.

Volw · 2011-07-12, 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by Redshift

and also PS is the only MMO that is comparable to PS2 so there is no precident set for progression, it's a pure pvp game people won't much like being at a huge disadvantage against vets

I remember a lot of massive threads over at PS1 forums of people asking for some sort of progression. That's why BR20+ were added. That's why 'unlockables' were added.

Oh, another good argument for you guys ;-)

CR5 - are you not going to complain CR5 is able to nuke dozens of people from the orbit. Yet a poor BR1 doesn't have this option? ;-)

Redshift · 2011-07-12, 05:54 PM

ok put it this way, i could build a new char lvl 1, run to a tower lob a jammer at the first rexo i see shove a sweeper up his arse and blow him to bits, and that would be me being better than him, his lvl would not give him more of a chance, i could do exactly the same on my main char the only difference is i'd be able to repair AFTER the fight

Redshift · 2011-07-12, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by Volw

CR5 - are you not going to complain CR5 is able to nuke dozens of people from the orbit. Yet a poor BR1 doesn't have this option? ;-)

If the OS was his main weapon yes...... but luckily it's not, his main weapon is exactly the same as the lvl 1 as is everything else, if the level 1 couldn't beat a lvl 25 (20% is enough of a difference not to lose a fight imo) then they simply would not play

**Malorn** · 2011-07-12, 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by Redshift

ok put it this way, i could build a new char lvl 1, run to a tower lob a jammer at the first rexo i see shove a sweeper up his arse and blow him to bits, and that would be me being better than him, his lvl would not give him more of a chance, i could do exactly the same on my main char the only difference is i'd be able to repair AFTER the fight

This is a much more concise and entertaining version of my rambling posts.