"Speeding it up"

[NCLynx]

In TBs video the TTK looked a LITTLE bit high to me, but it not even that much. Everything else looked fine.

[Mechzz]

I'm not going apeshit over the TTK *yet*

What we saw was Alpha quality, maybe an older build and probably tweaked to suit the devs needs for bug testing. I can easily imagine they have a dev-tool that winds up and down the TTK to suit how many players are in the game, for example.

The game IS walking a tightrope, however, at least for the team-oriented players. They must get the masses in to populate the game and make some money. But for the team-oriented peeps, they need to retain enough the things that rewarded team play for them to hang around. That is a cleft stick, and it's an uncomfortable place for anyone to be.

[Gonefshn]

Originally Posted by Bromaxulon

Another poster pointed out what you missed from my post so I won't rehash that.

Most here that faster ttk will eliminate the "tactical" elements from the game. This is quite untrue, it just changes the tactical style.

What I mean by this is that things like suppress and flank and other modern infantry tactics will be much more valid. It becomes a game of position and movement, using infantry level tactics ( bounding overwatch etc) and less about spamming medpacks and carrying the right implants.

Sure most modern tactics worked in the original ps, it was a deep game in that sense, but when using sound tactics to get the jump on your opponent don't work because he has +1 armor or can hit f1 faster or just duck around a corner and heal(all infantry had med app and armor reps in ps1) the game feels less like epic advanced warfare and more like a traditional mmo.

Faster ttk and the improved gunplay will make battles even more engaging and tactical. You will have to think before you move because if you don't you die, much like a real battlefield and a lot more like chess then your example is.

I agree with this post. This is part of the reason I can dig the faster TTK in games like BF3. Survivability becomes more about the choices you make then being a numbers game. It also gives players a better chance of getting kills without taking damage themselves, meaning a good player can take out more than one guy at a time if he is good enough and uses his environment wisely to draw people into his line of sight or into ambushes.

I do think the TTK needs to be slower a bit, ive said this before. Simply because compared to BF3 or CoD you will have so many more things going on a longer TTK will be helpful to give a slightly higher buffer for situations where you just cant keep track of everything.

I do forsee outfits being even more tactical this time around. In Planetside being out in the open was totally fine. If you had cover close by you could easily run behind it when under fire and repair. I like the idea that you need to be inside cover to be safe, popping out only to move to new cover, take some shots, or get a gauge on the surroundings. A good outfit can really make some cool strategies with this style.

I still think this doesn't apply to tanks though. You can't covertly play as an MBT and using cover is an afterthought mostly. Tanks need to retain a long TTK so they feel as powerful as they need to be.

[Raymac]

The original Planetside always felt slow and clunky to me. I like the idea that it will be sped up a little and smoothed out. Obviously we know it's not going to be like Tribes or anything, but there was plenty of room to speed up the game. For TTK, the dev's have repeatedly said the goal will be between BFBC2 and BF3 which sounds good to me. That goal can be reached with some minor tweeks through testing.

Also, I'm tired of hearing how every criticism about the game will "kill teamwork". You can completely debate something about the game without playing the "kills teamwork" card. If they remove squads, outfits, or chat, THEN you can complain about teamwork getting killed, otherwise, just choose a different argument that actually holds water.

[Bags]

Originally Posted by Raymac

Also, I'm tired of hearing how every criticism about the game will "kill teamwork". You can completely debate something about the game without playing the "kills teamwork" card. If they remove squads, outfits, or chat, THEN you can complain about teamwork getting killed, otherwise, just choose a different argument that actually holds water.

Jump pads kill teamwork! Classes kill teamwork! Three continents at launch kills teamwork!

[Xyntech]

Originally Posted by Mechzz

My feeling too. Maybe us old ones just need to take a chill pill and accept that the kiddies can have their fun with the game play changes, but we know we will get more fun by waiting for the bus/gal in the courtyard and flying out with 20 team-mates on a war-turning spec ops mission.

This.

No matter the pacing or TTK, I believe that more seasoned, tactically oriented players who may or may not be into the more twitch elements of the game will still have their place.

A lot of players have mentioned over the past few months how they enjoyed the lull in the action between certain fights, how it gave them some down time... Go sit in a quiet corner and make yourself a sammich. The rest of the game shouldn't have to slow down just because a few players want a break.

That being said, TTK seems a tiny bit fast on infantry and way too fast on vehicles. TTK isn't that hard of a stat to adjust though, so I doubt it will be too big a deal to get it right during beta, if they haven't already fixed it before then.

Just remember that tactical and team players will still be valuable and useful no matter how fast the TTK is. You can have your fun while the twitch shooter kiddies have theirs, however they can't have their fun if the game is paced like PS1. The game may have been perfect for some players, but it was too slow for a shooter in general.

Hopefully we strike a good balance between too slow and too fast, but this is certainly another area where we will have to adapt and overcome. PS1's pacing will not work as a successful game today. It barely worked for the first game, although there were a lot of other reasons why populations suffered back then as well.

On the subject of TTK's being a bit fast, I agree, but I'm not worried about that til beta. On the subject of the game being sped up, I say good. It will help it be a success and I'm confident that, if done within reason, it won't hurt the most important gameplay aspects of Planetside 2 at all. Team work will still thrive, especially due to the persistent nature of the environment.

[Kurtz]

Fast gameplay and MMO do not go together well. There needs to be downtime in between. Nobody can keep a fast twitch playstyle up for too long. I played BF2 and COD competitively and was always best coming off a break. 2 hours of playing and I was slowing down and burning out. Having watched the gameplay videos the devs are either terrible or were told to stand around and let Higby shoot at them. The gameplay I have seen will not represent the gameplay we will see at beta/launch. I will actually be much better at PS2 than I was at PS1 simply because PS2 is more like the games I am good at.

So by no means do I want a slow TTK because I don't feel like I can keep up. I don't want a fast TTK because I want to ENJOY the moments of an MMO.

Devs need to remember that the camaraderie (and immersion) was created ON THE WAY TO BATTLE. In PS1 and WW2Online, the best times were in the Gal (or transport of choice) on the way to the battle. It gets the adrenaline up to be helplessly in the back of a transport that could get shot down or blown up at any point in time only to jump out and go from quiet to chaos at the drop of a hat. Pressure on the driver to deliver the troops, etc... great game tension all around. Spawning on teh SL takes the need for this away.

BF3 Control points at a base make the fight too spread out and will not concentrate enemies to a reduced number of entrance points. Add jump jets and Luanch pads and this game will be BF3 meets unreal tourney.

Also the ability to spawn off a team mate indoors will completely undo the idea of the orginal game. You needed to run from point a to point b to get inside. Usually if your AMS was blown or you died after a GAL drop you had to regroup and redeploy.

There was something great about getting rid of an enemy AMS and hunting for hidden ones that were somewhat further away. Equally fun on the attacking side was regrouping after your attack was thwarted.

the TTK on the MBT was WAAAAAAY too fast. Add in the gunner is now the driver and the tanks will be useless. Back in the day good Tank gunners and drivers were a highly sought after team. A good driver kept at the fringe of the fight without diving in too far. A good gunner kept enemies at bay and took out the competition. 10 hits would take out a tank as opposed to BF3s 2. No one will take the 2nd gunner spot unless they're infy looking for temporary cover from air.

TTK is the one thing that concerns me about this game. I don't want it to be too slow like PS1 but BF3 is a little too fast for a MMOFPS IMO.

I like WW2 online and PS2 because you feared Tanks and Planes.

In BF3 planes have no bombs...its laughable.
Tanks are a joke.

In PS1 you crapped in your pants if you saw a tank. Infy with a decimator could only keep a tank at bay for so long. You were pretty much dead meat.

Thats they way war is thats the way this game should be.

I remember very specifically that Planetside really emulated real war in the way that you had to control the air first in hostile territory if you wanted to win (just like IRL), the way you countered Air was putting up good dog fighters yourself and some AA. When the defenders countered with AA you brought in the tanks (to clean up the max units and skillguards), forcing the enemy to counter with tanks.

The point is there was a process to winning the battle that was a rock paper scissors style of game play. If one side wasn't flexible (wouldn't pull armor for example) then they lost. Period. end of fucking story.

I don't want to see a bunch of Infy fighting off Air and Tanks with a couple of Shoulder rockets and C4.

[Bags]

Originally Posted by Kurtz

pawn off a team mate indoors will completely undo the idea of the orginal game.

Whoa whoa whoa, source fucking please.

[Bags]

Oh, and can we stop systematically insulting everyone who doesn't hate the TTK? Thanks.

[Gonefshn]

Originally Posted by Bags

Oh, and can we stop systematically insulting everyone who doesn't hate the TTK? Thanks.

Dude, Bro. You don't hate the TTK??? WTF Bro.

[Xyntech]

Originally Posted by Kurtz

Fast gameplay and MMO do not go together well. There needs to be downtime in between. Nobody can keep a fast twitch playstyle up for too long. I played BF2 and COD competitively and was always best coming off a break. 2 hours of playing and I was slowing down and burning out.

So take some down time. Go do something logistical for your empire that is less intense. I've played twitch shooters for many hours on end, and while I'm not the most skilled player, endurance isn't a problem for me, or a lot of other players.

I'll grant that my endurance isn't as high for a shooter as it is for an MMORPG, but MMORPG's are all about downtime and boring shit. Even when they get intense they are still pretty mundane. The are like glorified chat rooms. I think Planetside needs to focus a little more on the FPS than the MMO when it comes to pacing, or else it will miss out on its largest pool of potential players.

Set your own pace. The war wont be lost because you took it easy after an intense fight. Even the fighting itself should be possible to play at variable speeds. There were players who tried as hard as possible to rush past the slow pace of the first game, while other groups in fact played even slower than average. Everyone can still contribute. Nobody has to be left behind. Just make sure you're in an outfit that can accommodate playing at the pace you like to play at.

Faster pacing just allows the game to be more engaging for players who haven't gotten into the deeper tactical shit yet, but the very nature of the game is going to funnel them towards more team oriented play the longer they stick with the game. Hopefully having very fun shooting gameplay will help keep those players around long enough that they do start becoming more valuable team members, and not just abandon the game like PS1 was abandoned.

Originally Posted by Kurtz

The point is there was a process to winning the battle that was a rock paper scissors style of game play. If one side wasn't flexible (wouldn't pull armor for example) then they lost. Period. end of fucking story.

I have little doubt that this will still be the case in PS2, even if it's at a slightly faster pace than before. If I end up being wrong, I'll be right there with you demanding it get fixed. Combined arms was an essential part of Planetsides formula, so it certainly wouldn't be acceptable to lose that dynamic.

[Graywolves]

While I think adapting to a much quicker paced game won't be too difficult. Kurtz raised a very good point about how long the average play session of a twitchy shooter is and how it effects an MMO.


I used to play Planetside all day everyday. I will in Planetside2 any chance I get.

But newer players and others will probably find that they require a good break every hour or so if they want to consistently play way.

Current TTK and speed to the battle might be a bit of a double-edged sword as players are spending more time competing and focusing on the immediate battle but less time reflecting on their actual play, hyping themselves up, speaking to other players..

It could be undermining the MMO part of the game.


-edit-

But I do think organized outfits will still have those moments where you need to rally at a location, pile in a transport, or decide where to go next after a big fight.

[Attackmack]

Im not happy about the fact that you can't push your enemy out of the battle (more or less).

I mean, in ps1 if you assaulted a facility and where pushed back and eventually lost all towers around that base, that assault was essentially a failure and the battle was "over". For a while the defenders could easy up and regroup as the attackers would have to regroup at sanc or some adjacent facility.

In PS2 it seems you will always have enemies very close by, and no matter how hard you push them, attacking or defending, they will always be able to spawn just "over there".

And when the current players engaged in the battle have tired of it, logs off and go to sleep, there will be new ones logging in respawning in the heat of battle taking their place.


Im all for having ongoing action when action is the case but i fear it will just feel like a huge player round of never ending modern warfare. At first it might sound like it would be awesome but in fact it wouldn't. :/

[Xyntech]

I think a better solution would be to try to find ways off facilitating and supporting some of those MMO and community elements, but not at the cost of hurting the speed of the firefights.

I know most MMO's tend to be largely about the socialization, with gameplay being more of an afterthought, but that just doesn't fly for an FPS, and the more Planetside 2 embraces being an FPS, the better I think it will do.

Obviously it's also important that it is an MMO, and the socialization and community aspects are important for that. I just believe that the two elements can coexist, without hurting each other.

Getting rid of continent locks and speeding up the gameplay will mean that if a player wants to just drop in and shoot a few guys before work, there will always be a battle ready for them to jump into. Hell, the mission system should even help make those short play sessions helpful to the team effort.

I'd rather have players jumping on for an hour at a time to play Planetside 2 than to play any other game, because even if it's a short play session, those players are still keeping the populations high.

There will still be players pulling 8 hour sessions. We will just find the pace that's right for ourselves, so that we can stay in the fight for as long as we want.

[Gonefshn]

Originally Posted by Graywolves

But I do think organized outfits will still have those moments where you need to rally at a location, pile in a transport, or decide where to go next after a big fight.

Your absolutely right, and Xyntech said the same thing above.

I've said this time and again in various different places when it feels necessary to the discussion. Just because there will be players zerging and playing a lone wolf twitch game doesn't mean it has any effect on you.

The mass wave of zerging rinse/repeat run and gun players in PS1 never hurt the game. In fact, I feel it provided the essential backbone to keep the fight going. If you want to play tactical, then sit back and gather troops, work on a large coordinated assault, whatever. What is stopping you? Nothing.

Set your own pace, play your own way. The zerg stalemate will exist. So take a step back, organize 30 MBTs or a 10 galaxy drop team and kick the damn door in. No amount of lonewolf rinse and repeat players trickling into a fight will be able to compete when large combined arms groups show up. Not in PS1 and not in PS2, gauranteed.