The Impending Magrider Nerf.

[ChipMHazard]

Originally Posted by Aveox

Rotate tank body so the side faces your enemy and drive forward/backwards to dodge.
I can do that in a Lightning. Surely it must be possible with a Vanguard and Prowler as well?

Of course. Just not as easy nor as fast, when it comes to how fast you can start moving side to side, as when using a Magrider. Also the Magrider doesn't have to expose it's side armor to strafe.

[almalino]

Originally Posted by Aveox

Rotate tank body so the side faces your enemy and drive forward/backwards to dodge.
I can do that in a Lightning. Surely it must be possible with a Vanguard and Prowler as well?

Tell it to me when yesterday I was driving backwards on Vanguard fighting approaching Magrider and hit the building with my back. After that I could move only forward because all rotation was blocked by the building. If I would have Magrider I will just strafe but I was Vanguard and could not strafe and was immediately ripped appart

Just imagine an infantry soldier who can strafe vs the soldier who cannot. Who you think will win at the end?

[Rothnang]

Originally Posted by ChipMHazard

Well, the problem with trying to get closer to an enemy tank, especially when it comes to Magriders, is they are also driving further away to keep the gap as much as possible.
Trying to close the gap quickly is especially fatal during large engagements.

That's how most of the larger engagements were being fought before I left, at least on Amerish and Esamir.

Trying to get close to a large enemy tank formation is no less deadly to a Magrider than it is to any other tank. Large tank battles tend to turn into a stalemate unless you intervene with aircraft or manage to drive another force of tanks or a Sundie with some heavies behind the enemy and outflank them.

Tank battles in PS2 are very much like conventional military strategy works in real life, if you're attacking an enemy from just one side he will have a very easy time staying in cover or retreating when in trouble, and you won't be able to move up to him to get around his cover or hunt him down when he's making a retreat without getting shot to ribbons. You need to get around that by maneuvering on the enemy.

Magriders may have an inherent advantage avoiding damage at long range, but they don't have an advantage when it comes to whether or not they can decide a long range fight in their favor without other forces intervening.

Yes, the Magrider is the most maneuverable MBT, so you could argue that it has an advantage when it actually comes to outflanking the enemy tank column, but as far as I'm concerned the tank most uniquely suited to that is the Lightning, or a Sunderer with HAs, which the Vanu don't have any better versions of than other empires.

[ChipMHazard]

Originally Posted by Rothnang

Trying to get close to a large enemy tank formation is no less deadly to a Magrider than it is to any other tank. Large tank battles tend to turn into a stalemate unless you intervene with aircraft or manage to drive another force of tanks or a Sundie with some heavies behind the enemy and outflank them.

Tank battles in PS2 are very much like conventional military strategy works in real life, if you're attacking an enemy from just one side he will have a very easy time staying in cover or retreating when in trouble, and you won't be able to move up to him to get around his cover or hunt him down when he's making a retreat without getting shot to ribbons. You need to get around that by maneuvering on the enemy.

Magriders may have an inherent advantage avoiding damage at long range, but they don't have an advantage when it comes to whether or not they can decide a long range fight in their favor without other forces intervening.

Yes, the Magrider is the most maneuverable MBT, so you could argue that it has an advantage when it actually comes to outflanking the enemy tank column, but as far as I'm concerned the tank most uniquely suited to that is the Lightning, or a Sunderer with HAs, which the Vanu don't have any better versions of than other empires.

True, but magriders don't need to get as close as a Prowler does. It's better off not getting too close, in large engagements. You're right that large engagements do end up getting bogged down. At least until one side has taken out enough to try and rush the enemy.

Outflanking is always better than trying to just attack an enemy head on. This however doesn't have anything, or very little, to do with balancing the MBTs. They, of course, have to balanced towards facing each other on equal terms, not one coming in from behind, from up top, from the side etc. Obviously I'm not against different tanks having different strengths and weaknesses, not at all. I really like the tank design in the original.

True, this is a combined arms game. This doesn't mean that the magrider gets to be overall better, again imo., than both the Vanguard and Prowler. They have to be equally as good.

True enough, but I don't see what that has to do with balancing the MBTs.

[almalino]

I think we all are just wining TR NC drivers who are jelaous to Magradier ability to snipe people from the hill tops

[ChipMHazard]

Originally Posted by almalino

I think we all are just wining TR NC drivers who are jelaous to Magradier ability to snipe people from the hill tops

Guilty as charged

[Koadster]

Originally Posted by ChipMHazard

Oh, aye. "Very, very slightly"... Just like "soon(TM)". The Prowler's design still has flaws, which have been pointed out more than once. Give us a centralized turret, then we can talk about other buffs. A minor damage increase will do nothing to actually balance out the Prowler, especially considering that the anchor mode is so very, very bad when compared to the speed boost and shield. It still goes against everything the Prowler stands for, getting up close as fast as possible.
If that's what you guys ment when you made the comment about buffing the Prowler then colour me severely dissapointed.

The potential changes to the Vanguard and Magrider look more promising.

You really think Ehigby wants to fix the prowler. Since early beta we have been wanting changes. As a HA at any distance we have to BUY launchers to fight off mags, atleast vannies and prowlers are tracked so you got a better change.. Driving a mag *moves 10 paces left* you missle is now ineffective.

[Rothnang]

What I'm ultimately just completely opposed to is to make the Magrider numerically much weaker than the Vanguard or the Prowler in some attempt to balance for its maneuverability.

The Magrider already has a lot of unique downsides that people like to just gloss over, like the fact that you can't drive a Magrider around backwards since you can't see out the back, which is a pretty big deal, since it really hampers your ability to retreat from a fight while your best armor still faces the enemy. It's also considerably weaker than the other tanks in urban warfare type scenarios because your situational awareness in a Magrider really suffers from not being able to look around without turning your whole tank.

There are tons of scenarios where turreted tanks are simply better. For example, if you have a scenario where you've become surrounded by three enemy heavies, two on one side and one on the other and you can't run away. The best course of action for a turreted tank is to turn the tank sideways so you aren't catching any of the rockets on your back armor, then kill the single heavy, so one side is clear, then turn your front armor toward the other two while you try to fight them. If we assume that every time you kill one they all also shoot a rocket you would survive the encounter that way.
Now think about that scenario with the Magrider. If you try to kill the lone Heavy first the other two will shoot you in the back, so you just lost the fight right there. If you try to catch rockets on your sides you can't shoot back, so that's no way to win, if you shoot one of the two heavies first you'll take a missile in the rear and then you're right back to not being able to attack either one without the other killing you...

Granted, that's a very specific scenario and not one that crops up often, but variations of that type of dilemma happen a lot in the game, and a tank that can rotate its turret independently from its hull has a clear advantage there.

[almalino]

Originally Posted by Rothnang

like the fact that you can't drive a Magrider around backwards since you can't see out the back, which is a pretty big deal, since it really hampers your ability to retreat from a fight while your best armor still faces the enemy.

You can switch to 3rd person view and in a way see what is behind you. So, this
not a strong argument. Also, have you tried to move backwards in Vanguard when you controls are effectively reverted in the middle of the fight?

[Rothnang]

I drive Lightnings more than Magriders, and I have an NC character purely so I can take a Vanguard out for a spin every once in a while. External view doesn't really give you a way to look behind you, it just shows you things maybe 2 meters away from you, so it's more like a collision sensor than a rear view mirror.

I have no problem driving either of the turreted tanks backwards. I have both of them souped up with the rival chassis so they drive backwards just as fast as forward, because the ability to move full speed away from what you've turned your armor toward is incredibly powerful.


I get why people think the Magrider is easier to use, because since your gun is fixed to your front armor it automatically adjusts your armor to the best thing you can do in 90% of all situations. With every other tank it's very easy to forget keeping your hull pointed at the enemy because you're so focused on just shooting. I just think that if you're experienced enough that you don't have to think about the hull angling anymore, and you just do it automatically the turreted tanks open themselves up for mastering armor angling techniques that a Magrider can't ever use, and you can also start adjusting to the 10% of situations where you don't want to be pointing your armor at what you're shooting at.

[Ghoest9]

All this whining is crap.

At the end of it all the numbers show mag riders are way more successful on the battlefield than the other 2 tanks.
Thats why it is being nerfed.

[Fenrys]

Originally Posted by Assist

it can run circles around a Magrider faster than the Magrider can spin to keep hitting it.

If you reverse while rotating, you can catch them.

[Rothnang]

Originally Posted by Ghoest9

At the end of it all the numbers show mag riders are way more successful on the battlefield than the other 2 tanks.
Thats why it is being nerfed.

Yes, and by taking the comparison of all Magriders vs. all other tanks and nerfing accordingly they are cutting off any skilled Magrider player at the knees just because unskilled Magriders outperform unskilled Vanguards and Prowlers.

Magrider drivers start out with perfect 1on1 armor angling by default. People who drive other tanks need to first learn how to do that. That's why Magriders win when you tally up how successful people are on average with the vehicle. When you're dealing with more proficient players though the Magrider just isn't that much better, if at all.

[ShadetheDruid]

I think what they need to do is just give Vanguards, Prowlers and Lightnings stabilised guns and see how that plays, both in regard to how they then get used and in actual battle situations against Magriders.

Also they need to fix the traction, both so we can actually climb hills better (like back in beta, maybe toned down a tad from that, but anything is better than the current traction), and so the tank doesn't very slowly slide around on its own when stationary.

[almalino]

Let see the situation Magraider vs Vanguard without upgrades head to head firing to each other at the same time.

Magraider strafe to the side and avoid being hit.
Vanguard cannot do that and must receive the hit in it's front

Result is that Vanaguard is damaged and Magrider is not. Profit For Magraider.