2002 going on 1984

[�io]

Originally posted by {BOHICA}Navaron
Why cant you shoot dead things?

I love that quote. You should put that in your sig.

[Incompetent]

Damage is damage

The sparrow was sucked into an engine airtake, i can't find shit about it though so i will concede the point though, the only thing that comes up is some ukranian crash a few months ago. I saw it on "worst air disasters" or some such crap on the discovery channel.

DC-10s blew up because of the windows, it just an example of how fragile an airliner is.

Edit: found a different one though, scroll down to 1975 http://www.super70s.com/Super70s/Sci.../AirDisasters/

Edit: It wasn't a DC-10, fuck i feel stupid because i can't remember what it was
Another Edit: It was the Comet, it's out of date but it still happened

[mistled]

"...and target shooting is mimicking shooting living things, seeing as that's their primary purpose. "

Isn't planetside mimicking shooting living things??

[Navaron]

The deHavilland comet was the biggest coffin with wings ever. It was the first jet, so of course shit didn't work. That plane is the reason we have the FAA now.

I don't think a DC-10 blew up because of windows. Regardless, no one but 3rd world countries fly dc10s. (Wait, I think i understand your edit.)

I was referring to modern aircraft which have to pass a full goose through (or can effectively prove they can divert) the turbines. Nothing can take them down. I've seen lotsa pics where a flock of geese was hit and they entered the cockpit and even travelled through the cabin to first class, those planes stayed airborne and didn't depressurize.

I think the point was that a bullet wouldn't destabilize a plane even in a worse case scenario.

[Incompetent]

Geese don't fly very high, its when the hull is breached up at 35,000/40,000 feet that the you have problems.

[Navaron]

You have less problems because there is less atmospheric pressure - nothing to crush the hull. Remember that flight 5 years ago where the top half of the passenger cabin came off at cruising altitude, those guys landed the plane safely and only the people who came out of the plane died (It was EgyptAir i think). Remember to remind me not to fly EgyptAir, that's where all of the most horrible aviation deaths started.

Lets get back on topic. WHat freedoms have we lost?

[Incompetent]

It's Explosive DEcompression, the hull is not crushed, its ripped apart from the inside.

But as far as the topic, i think that guns should be at least moderatly hard to get, at least in America. Most Americans are lazy bastards who don't believe they need such worthless things like "caution." (i am american)

[Navaron]

"Explosive DEcompression" - You're making this up right? The physics aren't there. A pressurized cabin is not pressurized to the point of explosion if punctured.

"Most Americans are lazy bastards who don't believe they need such worthless things like "caution." " Then they won't take the time and effort to get a firearm and permit. Regardless, don't they deserve the right to protect themselves?

[MrVicchio]

Guys, a sparrow can bring down a fighter, yes. Goes into the air intake... especially a single engine fighter. Or, if he is doing a high speed lox level pass. Say 50 feet 500 knots... thats a lot of kinetic energy. My dad was a fighter pilot, and well, hee can tell ya, in the right circumstances, it can happen.

Guns are o more dangerous then the person holding it.

If you don't have a clue, don't touch it. If you have kids, teach em to respect adn know what to do, then lock em up.

[Incompetent]

It is when your 40,000 feet up in a 20/30 year old airframe.

No they don't, because thats not what will happen if you give them a gun

[Navaron]

K

1 "It is when your 40,000 feet up in a 20/30 year old airframe"

I'm pretty sure a) that that old of a plane can't cruise at those altitudes and b) they couldn't pressurize nearly that much. I remember reading about how they had to have oxygen tanks in the cockpit back then becasue the cabins couldn't remain pressurized.

2 "No they don't, because thats not what will happen if you give them a gun"

Who, huh?

3 "sparrow can bring down a fighter, yes. Goes into the air intake"

No. Even vietnam fighters didn't have this problem. The air intake on 99.9999999% of jets, especially fighter jets, is under the cowling. So the bird would have to fly around inside the cowling, then turn and get into the intake. Now birds in the plane, preflight, can cause this problem. This does happen, but is because of poor preflight checks. A bird will not take out almost any plane, even cessnas and pipers. This is what I study all day every day. I know what I'm talking about.

[Incompetent]

1.) Most commercial planes are that old and they do fly that high, it doesn't matter how long they stay there because that is when a smart highjacker would take the plane, and thus, that is when the gun will be shot.

2.) Normal people, they won't use a gun for defence, they will shove it in there bedside table and shoot themselves on accident

3.) A bird going into the air intake of a fighter going mach 2 will have a very good chance of taking it down

[Navaron]

1) 777s don't cruise at 40000, spy planes fly at 44000. Regardless, a bullet hole will not bring down a plane. I've talked with the board of ALPA about this personally. I know it as a fact. I'm not trying to argue but it's a fact I know.

2)Ok normal people aren't that stupid.

3)"A bird going into the air intake of a fighter going mach 2 will have a very good chance of taking it down"

Did you not read my post? Bird would have to fly faster than mach 2 to enter the air intake from behind, if a bird can do that it deserves to take down a plane.

This stuff isn't conjecture it's facts and physics. I simply can't happen.

Lets start something else - Incomp, Vic - what freedoms don't you have now you had two years ago? What do you think about CFR?

[Incompetent]

1.) I'm willing to end it, we're never going to agree on this.

2.) I fear you overestimate the inteligence of normal people

3.) If the plane is moving fast enough a birdstrike anywhere will cause serious problems.

I don't think i have lost much freedom, and the freedom i lost is gone for a damn good reason.

[MrVicchio]

They had a Phantom go donw in Seymor Johnson, cause blue jay I belive got sucked in on take off... (Dad flew the F-4E)

Also, His best friend took a 12 lbs (thier gestamite from the damge) Duck into the lower right dside of the cockpit, and they manged to bring the bird back.. looked like a giant can opener had been used on the plane.