Airlift, or was it Les.. yeah Lex.. this is for you.. - Page 4

mistled · 2003-01-15, 07:20 PM

Actually, that's addressed in that long post of nav's. But personally, I don't want to argue what was a good idea or a bad idea years and years ago. It doesn't matter. We have to live with the past. I'd rather debate the current, and let the past be brought up only in a way that it sheds light on the current situation.

Airlift · 2003-01-15, 07:25 PM

It's the root issue. Before you can say that legislated diversity is racism, you have to consider it's origins. Affirmative Action isn't something that suddenly sprang into being. It has been here for almost 40 years. That's longer than I've been alive, and I feel old on a game forum.

Navaron · 2003-01-15, 07:29 PM

My great great great grandfather gouged out your's eye. Gouge mine out now, it'll get better.

Lexington_Steele · 2003-01-15, 07:31 PM

Originally posted by {BOHICA}Navaron
In the US what are the other 33?

I think you misunderstood the article.

Those numbers are compared to the Income-distributed-HDI rankings of all countries.

This may help you to understand.

The USA's
HDI value: 0.976
HDI rank as compared to other countries HDI value: 8

So when you look at the just the whites in the USA, they have the best HDI as compared to the HDI of any other nation in the world.

When you look at the Blacks in the USA their HDI ranks 31st when compared to the HDI of other countries. The HDI of blacks ranks them just ahead the people of Tridad and Tobago.

The HDI of hispanics ranks them 35 in the world which is just ahead of the HDI in Estonia.

mistled · 2003-01-15, 07:34 PM

Airlift, from nav's post...
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When affirmative action was about justice, it at least had moral force. Opponents could argue about the social costs (unfairness, racial resentment and patronization of minority achievement), but they had to acknowledge the contrary claims of racial redress. You might disagree that racial preferences were the best solution, but you had to respect the moral seriousness of the idea.

But now? What is there to respect in a scheme for giving newly arrived immigrants a leg up over everyone, including blacks? The SAT ploy is a sideshow, to be sure, but there is no better illustration of the wretched state to which affirmative action has sunk than this: a naked spoils system that under the flag of diversity makes a mockery of the impulse for justice that once lay at the core of affirmative action.
-----------------------------------------------------
The idea here is that it was never a good method of doing things. All AA ever had going for it was the same thing the Crusades had. A good moral intent.

Unregistered · 2003-01-15, 07:34 PM

Whites have more in this country because they have worked longer at becoming sucessful.

Let me tell you the story of my Great Garnd Father who came here from Sweeden with $5 in his pocket. Him and his brother spent everything they had on train tickets and travled as far west as the could.

They ended up in Jawbridge, NV and began mining gold to scratch out a living. After working in the mines for a number of years the gold began to run out and, and the small mining town they lived in dryed up quickly and practically became a ghost town.

My Great Grandfather bought the local genral store with his hard earned cash, and continued to buy up all the buildings in town as they became available. At one point he owned 90% of the public buildings in Mt. City, NV.

Many people thought him a fool for buying buildings in a ghost town. All the time that he was busy buying up property in Mt City he was also funding "A crazy old drunk" who swore there was a rich copper vein in the area.

Well the drunk turned out to be right and struck the richest copper strike in Nevada history. Suddenly the town was alive again and my Great Grandfather became a very wealth man. Money he spent doing things like brining electricity to the entire city.

My Great Grandfather was ridiculed as a "Big Dumb Sweede" and was never once given a hand out of any kind. Not that he would have accepted it in the first place. He got where he was not by being white, but by working hard.

Why shoudl things be any diffrent today? I got to where i am by working hard. No one gave me any hand outs. I was homeless, and living under a bridge, but i got cleaned up, worked my way through school, and am now fairly sucessful with a good job. If anything the color of my skin made my transition from the streets to success that much more difficult.

I applied for Student Aid but was denied.

I applied for Scholarships but didn't recieve any.

But all around me there were Asians, hispanics, and Blacks that came from afluent families that were getting a free ride on the back of afirmitiave action. In the eyes of the State they were more important then i was simpley for the color of their skin, and not for their social situation.

I worked for everything that I have, and afirmative action has worked against me the entire time. It's time has passed and it needs to be abolished.

mistled · 2003-01-15, 07:35 PM

Lex, Are the numbers you quote true because of the color of their skin??

Lexington_Steele · 2003-01-15, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by {BOHICA}mistled
I'll asume that this is report number 1999 since the book was only published in 1993.

Oops, typo. The title is Human Development Report 1993

It was an accident. The report is from 1993. I will edit my original post to correct the typo.

Lexington_Steele · 2003-01-15, 07:41 PM

Originally posted by {BOHICA}mistled
Lex, all that tells me is that there are a lot of rich white people in the US. Of course the whites are better educated on average because the average rich person is white. We shouldn't be trying to help blacks by hurting whites, we should be helping the poor (many who happen to be black) by giving them more education choices, which is what the rich have that keeps them rich.

Once again, AA is not meant to help the poor. It is meant to address an inequality between the races. If we are addressing a problem of inequality between races, why would we take race out of the equasion?

Lexington_Steele · 2003-01-15, 07:42 PM

Originally posted by Unregistered
Whites have more in this country because they have worked longer at becoming sucessful.

And what have blacks in America been doing all this time? Sitting on their butts?

Unregistered · 2003-01-15, 07:43 PM

Originally posted by Lexington_Steele
I think you misunderstood the article.

Those numbers are compared to the Income-distributed-HDI rankings of all countries.

This may help you to understand.

The USA's
HDI value: 0.976
HDI rank as compared to other countries HDI value: 8

So when you look at the just the whites in the USA, they have the best HDI as compared to the HDI of any other nation in the world.

When you look at the Blacks in the USA their HDI ranks 31st when compared to the HDI of other countries. The HDI of blacks ranks them just ahead the people of Tridad and Tobago.

The HDI of hispanics ranks them 35 in the world which is just ahead of the HDI in Estonia.

These studies fail to take into concideration the amount of time that Whites/Blacks/Hispanics have been in the U.S.

I will a gree that whites poesses more money then Blacks, but far more blacks imigrate into this country every year then whites. Same goes for hispanics.

Is it too far of a strech to beleave that 1st and 2nd generation Mexican-Americans live a slightly better quality of life then they had in Mexico, but not the same Quality of life as a 10 generation white American.

By the same token a 10 generation Mexican American enjoys a much better quality of life then a 1st or 2nd generation Russian (white) American.

For a study like this to be acurate and to be taken seriously it must provide comparisons between races of similar imigration status. I'd be willing to bet that White Imagriants are just as poor as hispanic or black imigriants when they get here.

Lexington_Steele · 2003-01-15, 07:44 PM

Originally posted by {BOHICA}mistled
Lex, Are the numbers you quote true because of the color of their skin??

I am not sure what you mean by this.

Unregistered · 2003-01-15, 07:44 PM

Originally posted by Lexington_Steele
And what have blacks in America been doing all this time? Sitting on their butts?

Mostly screaming that they need hand outs.

Airlift · 2003-01-15, 07:45 PM

-- and Airlift, I had to reply somehow, didn't I?? What else did you expect me to say??

The CBG was for MrVicchio. Every time I pop in to check the new posts this thread jumps at me because my nick is all over the subject line and it gets on my nerves. I can't ignore him because he's my PS news source. On the other hand, he knows fuckall about my politics aside from my opinion about Suburb Utility Vehicles. I have many liberal views, and I have many conservative views, yet here we have a nice freerepublic thing going and I'm the villainous liberal hippy. The funniest part is that I hate SUVs as the owner of a sports car, not a bleeding heart.

Navaron · 2003-01-15, 07:47 PM

"Once again, AA is not meant to help the poor. It is meant to address an inequality between the races. If we are addressing a problem of inequality between races, why would we take race out of the equasion?"

What is their goal? Hmmm? If you don't know, then what are you trying to get them to attain? Hmmm, I'm gonna say we measure wealth as success. So we want them to get rich right? Why just poor blacks then? Why not help all poor people attain the means to get wealthy...Teach a man to fish...

"And what have blacks in America been doing all this time? Sitting on their butts?"

He said longer. Also, if the current system has it's way, they'll all be totally dependant on government handouts and mediocre urban schooling.