aircraft control - Page 4

SKYeXile · 2012-05-29, 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by LegioX

I understand that. But a mouse would be nowhere near accurate if you always had to compensate for g-force, wind, and other things i will not get into b/c its no point in arguing anymore on something they will not change

we're not talking about some flight sim, where a joystick probably is better, we're talking about PS2.

LegioX · 2012-05-29, 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by elfailo

I rarely use joysticks so I can't be entirely sure how accurate a really good player would be with them, so I'm guessing at best. It entirely depends on how the input works. Physics are irrelevant since they can be manipulated at will, what matters is how input is translated.

For example, a joystick's thrust control can be set at a fixed point in a single motion. With a keyboard you have to hold down the key until it's there, then release. Whether the keyboard player is able to do this with the same amount of control and speed depends on how the constant signal of the key being held down translates to the aircraft's thrusters (i.e. on top of the aircraft accelerating, there could be another layer of acceleration based on how long the key has been held down).

With roll/rotation it's the same thing. If you use a joystick you can roll at a constant speed by twisting the stick to the desired angle and holding it there. If you want to rotate at 50% of max speed, you twist the stick to 50%.

With a keyboard you can either have a fixed constant speed of roll, or you could make it accelerate at some point, or simulate momentum (/mass) by implementing a delay in stop of rotation after key has been released. Here also, not necessarily physics. If the aircraft even have a mass value that affects input, you could simply adjust the force of the lateral thrusters to compensate for inertia and still have an aircraft that pitches and rolls tightly enough to make mice the preferred input.

By the way, g-forces on the pilot are never an issue in video games because you're not actually in the plane. You're sitting at a desk, unaffected by the movement of the virtual plane you're controlling. This one should have been quite obvious.

Look its no point in going into this in more depth. I have already stated in the post above that there is no point in discussing it anymore. I realize PS 2 is arcade and also that mouse movement along entire 3 axis of plane movement is considered better due to planes not acting like what a real plane should feel like. (mainly in flight sims)

maradine · 2012-05-29, 07:52 PM

Originally Posted by SKYeXile

Yea i dont, but the arguments not if a mouse is better in RL, but if a joystick is better than a mouse in gaming, and i think when it comes to gaming Elcyco and myself would be the most qualified here in discussions on flight.

How does one even make that claim with a straight face?

(sorry LegioX!)

LegioX · 2012-05-29, 07:53 PM

what claim?

Serpent · 2012-05-29, 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by Warborn

TotalBiscuit could stop on a dime and rotate fast enough to shoot down a scythe that was on his tail before it flew by him. I wouldn't worry about maneuverability. They're not jets, they're helicopters. Space helicopters. Even more agile and fast than helicopters from Battlefield games by the look of it.

Yeah... so about the Scythe being the most maneuverable aircraft out there...

I was afraid of this, and it looks like it has happened. The Scythe was nerfed so hard that it really doesn't matter nearly as much anymore, since the other helicopters can easily turn (as you said).

This is just what it feels like. I don't think TB should have been able to do what he did.

Kirotan · 2012-05-31, 09:41 PM

Originally Posted by Serpent

Yeah... so about the Scythe being the most maneuverable aircraft out there...

I was afraid of this, and it looks like it has happened. The Scythe was nerfed so hard that it really doesn't matter nearly as much anymore, since the other helicopters can easily turn (as you said).

This is just what it feels like. I don't think TB should have been able to do what he did.

I wonder what they will give in exchange if they don't have the most maneuverability anymore. Even as a VS fan this sounded imbalanced; speed and toughness for TR and NC don't help TOO much if your opponent can make tighter turns and always keep you in their sights. (I'm not a flying expert so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this).

SKYeXile · 2012-05-31, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by Kirotan

I wonder what they will give in exchange if they don't have the most maneuverability anymore. Even as a VS fan this sounded imbalanced; speed and toughness for TR and NC don't help TOO much if your opponent can make tighter turns and always keep you in their sights. (I'm not a flying expert so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this).

no you pretty much got it, if you can stay on their tail and outmanoeuvre them, you win in theory anyway.

meiam · 2012-05-31, 10:21 PM

Well that would be true in 1 on 1 battle, but I doubt there'll be a lot of time when you only have to worry about just one aircraft, but that doesn't sound like it's going to happen a lot, without even taking the ground troop into account.

Plus if you have a faster craft, the way to deal with this is to speed up in one direction and then turn back and go face to face with the enemy, the more maneuverable ship will usually be less armored so you have a good shoot at this. Plus you can use the terrain to your advantage to put the enemy in a situation were it's just not possible to outmaneuver you.

FastAndFree · 2012-06-01, 03:43 AM

Originally Posted by LegioX

Maybe I'm old fashion, or could just be the real life pilot in me coming out, but i really wish they would take out 3rd person view. Lock people in cockpit. Really stinks when you try to fly like the real thing, only to be handicapped by "options" they place in games (and not just this one).

ie: You could stay in cockpit, but are still at a disadvantage on spotting when someone can see better in 3rd person.

I was concerned about this too, but yesterday's video showed that there is freelook in the cockpit. I figure that would be better for keeping your eyes on the other plane.
Fingers crossed for trackIR but I guess worst case I still have the mouse stick on my X52 throttle

kadrin · 2012-06-01, 04:02 AM

Originally Posted by SKYeXile

no you pretty much got it, if you can stay on their tail and outmanoeuvre them, you win in theory anyway.

This only holds true if they all go the same speed. Do we know if the Mossie, Reaver and Scythe all go the same speed?

Noivad · 2012-06-01, 04:07 AM

In PS2, like PS1, Aircraft will be able to stop and rotate like a harrier. Overshoot your target AC and he will rotate on you shooting all the while you are trying to fly back at speed and line up for the shot. Happened in PS1 alot with inexperienced flyers.

In PS1, and hopefully PS2, you had the option to use the mouse or the joy stick, and to make profiles for aircraft types, vehicle types, and even Infantry types for either of them

What would be nice to see, and where cert points could be added to enhance flight, would be to have different flight varients respond differently to controls, based on their loadout configuration like they do in real life. A heavy aircraft responds differently then a lighter one within the same class of Aircraft. That would really make skill a factor in Aircraft encounters.

SKYeXile · 2012-06-01, 04:25 AM

Originally Posted by kadrin

This only holds true if they all go the same speed. Do we know if the Mossie, Reaver and Scythe all go the same speed?

it goes something like this

speed: skeeter > scythe > reaver
manoeuvring: scythe > skeeter > reaver
firepower: reaver > scythe > skeeter (not sure on the last 2 here, reaver def first though.
hp: reaver > skeeter > scythe

tanks are prettymuch the same as that. it will be interesting to see how it all works, you think they will be able to make it balanced though. but given that the scythe can turn on the spot and seems to not be effected by physics as much as the others it could be very dangerous.

kadrin · 2012-06-01, 04:34 AM

Originally Posted by SKYeXile

it goes something like this

speed: skeeter > scythe > reaver
manoeuvring: scythe > skeeter > reaver
firepower: reaver > scythe > skeeter (not sure on the last 2 here, reaver def first though.
hp: reaver > skeeter > scythe

tanks are prettymuch the same as that. it will be interesting to see how it all works, you think they will be able to make it balanced though. but given that the scythe can turn on the spot and seems to not be effected by physics as much as the others it could be very dangerous.

Yeah I can see the Mossie and the Scythe holding a definite advantage over the Reaver if it comes down to a 1 on 1 dogfight. Despite the game not being realistic you can still expect results being similar to how it would play out in reality. Speed trumps all, Maneuver is 2nd best, and the poor Reaver is dead last in both.

Though considering PS2s scale, 1 on 1s should not be the norm.

Xyntech · 2012-06-01, 05:26 AM

I look to the WWII Hellcat when thinking about how the Mossie and Reaver will be competing with the Scythe. Superior maneuverability is usually king in a dogfight, but speed and raw firepower/armor can trump it every day if used right.

So hopefully the Scythe won't be too under or overpowered. Properly balanced, I'm thinking that the Scythe will be both the easiest aircraft to pick up and fly, as well as having the highest skill cap. The other two fighters will probably be fractionally harder to pick up and fly and still have somewhat high skill caps due to the more advanced flight physics, but I think they will still be easier to master than the Scythe.

kadrin · 2012-06-01, 05:36 AM

Originally Posted by Xyntech

I look to the WWII Hellcat when thinking about how the Mossie and Reaver will be competing with the Scythe. Superior maneuverability is usually king in a dogfight, but speed and raw firepower/armor can trump it every day if used right.

So hopefully the Scythe won't be too under or overpowered. Properly balanced, I'm thinking that the Scythe will be both the easiest aircraft to pick up and fly, as well as having the highest skill cap. The other two fighters will probably be fractionally harder to pick up and fly and still have somewhat high skill caps due to the more advanced flight physics, but I think they will still be easier to master than the Scythe.

I thought similarly, more directly comparing the P40 and A6M with the Mossie and Scythe. Used correctly one will always trump the other. Though I'm more hoping the comparison is closer to the F4F and A6M where the difference in speed and maneuver is enough to notice but not so much that one so severely dominates the other.