What do oufits need? - Page 4

**Malorn** · 2012-06-12, 01:24 PM

In order for resources to remain relevant, outfits would need resource caps just like players. That would encourage them to spend.

If the resources come out of the members' pockets in the form of a tax then joining an outfit for resources isn't really practical, because you'll be paying in as well. They could also restrict the withdrawals to certain things, like Galaxies, and only give that privilege to Galaxy pilots.

So there are ways to do it without screwing anything up. You certainly don't want outfit resource to grow and grow to the point where they don't care about resources. Its more about being able to pool some resources for things that benefit the entire outfit.

Getting into a rough example so you understand the scale I'm talking about...

A small (optional) tax of like 5% or so and a max outfit resource pool size of 2x a player's max pool size seems reasonable to me. Resources would still matter, the outfit couldn't fund everyone, but it could fund a few things, like a tank if someone in the armor division is running low, or a few galaxies / sunderers for outfit use, or a few libs for Liberator night, that sort of thing.

Later they can add outfit-specific things which can cost resources, like temporary towers, vehicle pads, turrets, or other things that outfits can spend to upgrade a facility or outpost. Then outfits would have to manage what they spend those resources on.

So I see the outfit bank as the foundation for much more sandboxy stuff. Start out small with low resource caps and small taxes and see how it works out. Mabye give outfits some control.

If its small they could also award outfit resources without taxing the members, so the resources are effectively "free" but you don't get very many of them.

Instead of the outfit paying for the entire vehicle or upgrade outright, the outfit could also subsidize. For example, instead of paying entirely for the galaxy, the outfit bank might pay 50% of a galaxy, so the pilot still has to pay something, but not the whole thing. That puts some accountability on the pilot to not waste the resources since they also have some personal investment. These are all great things to include in any outfit resource system.

GuyFawkes · 2012-06-12, 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by Meriv

Nice idea of the outfits own certificates in this way u push ppl to organize themself in outfits to get the bonuses. And +1 to only being able to upper just in what u have received that exp, soo u get specialized outfits too

.

Thanks, since it has nothing to do with resources ,or outfit size. it isn't a tax on players. It cant be used to churn out more vehicles or anything like that. It just allows your outfit to , just like the class system , sidegrade along the lines that they want to specialise in.
If you want everyone in you outfit to look like zebras, great . If you would rather it be spent on tactical stuff like outfit recall , or drawing on map for instance you can do that.

Stardouser · 2012-06-12, 01:32 PM

I don't know if this is more properly an outfit or a mission system thing but I will throw it out anyway: The ability to see what loadout your guys have, and see what role/mission they are currently committed to doing, by individual, squad, and platoon. For example, if a squad is flying close air support/interdiction with liberators, the leader can mark his squad as doing that, and where, for the outfit to see. Or, if there is a squad of guys providing anti-air with AA vehicles, same deal.

It just seems like it would be good to see what people are doing at all times without having to query the VOIP or text.

Soothsayer · 2012-06-12, 01:34 PM

In terms of specialization, I think that outfits should be able to develop squad slots that outfit achievements (outfit points for lack of a better word/concept) can be spent towards increasing effectiveness or specialization of a given playstyle.

The problem with making these specializations outfit-wide is that you are pigeonholed into one type of playstyle all the time.

If you have different divisions, the outfit should be able to support them.

If you were a specialist outfit, you could pick to specialize multiple squads into that specialization.

This concept could be fit within the lore as a Nanite Systems narrative device.

**Malorn** · 2012-06-12, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by Stardouser

I don't know if this is more properly an outfit or a mission system thing but I will throw it out anyway: The ability to what loadout your guys have, and see what role/mission they are currently committed to doing, by individual, squad, and platoon. For example, if a squad is flying close air support/interdiction with liberators, the leader can mark his squad as doing that, and where, for the outfit to see. Or, if there is a squad of guys providing anti-air with AA vehicles, same deal.

It just seems like it would be good to see what people are doing at all times without having to query the VOIP or text.

Loadout might get a bit too detailed. Roles/class are important to see though.

Simple map/minimap icon + #, with color-coded for squad, like PS1 only with an icon next to the number indicating the class. So I could open up my map and look and see that we have 3 guys watching Point A, a MAX, Medic, and Engineer. I don't need to ask them over voice, and I probably know the members well enough to know what loadouts they are using if I know the role they are in. If there's a specific problem like the MAX is dual-burster guarding indoors then that's something they should probably tell you and not something you should have to go dig up. But again, just by the role you probably know the configuration if you've played with the person any significant amount of time.

Saifoda · 2012-06-12, 01:45 PM

@Marlon I understand now. The two issues (that would be the tax system rather than non-zero-sum gain along with outfits purchasing or subsidizing the purchase of vehicles for it's players) works out since, in effect, the players aren't getting the vehicles for free as the resources that were used to purchase/subsidize originally came directly from the players of the outfit.

And yeah, I didn't mention a resource cap for outfits (slipped my mind) but I think it's pretty necessary.

GuyFawkes · 2012-06-12, 02:05 PM

I just think that the idea of taxing outfit members in order that the outfit can buy galaxies etc is a tad unfair .
Better to make it a universal system of if you jump in a galaxy or any vehicle as a passenger or gunner you literally pay for the taxi service and the cost is shared . The driver gets refunded for his expense.No free rides. The longer the galaxy is in the game and not destroyed , the cheaper the taxi service becomes.
Maybe add in the outfit cert tree to reduce the cost of resources outfit wide when acquiring vehicles would be a possibility.

Tikuto · 2012-06-12, 02:05 PM

Instead of Resource for Outfits, how about a correlating points system that diminishes over-time.

Resources = Empire's - everyone's.
<Outfit Points> = Use of Empire Resources to initiate something.

These points develop as your Empire's resources develop. They also diminish after 40minutes of Outfit inactivity.
The purpose is to respect Resources as an Empire-wide thing and not an Outfit thing, and so these 'eligibility points' grant the Outfit the activation of a super-weapon by using Empire Resources.

**Malorn** · 2012-06-12, 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by GuyFawkes

I just think that the idea of taxing outfit members in order that the outfit can buy galaxies etc is a tad unfair .

So it's unfair for an outfit that heavily uses Galaxies to tax the people riding in them to pay for them and instead the Galaxy drivers should be the ones that always eat the cost?

Seems unfair to me that the pilot would always pay the bill and completely reasonable to have the 10 passengers all chip in 10-15 resources for the drop. As if dedicated galaxy pilots weren't hard enough to find, lets shaft them with the resource cost for supporting their outfit too! Support jobs are never fun, the least you can do is provide a way to absorb some of the pain and let the people that benefit from that support chip in.

If you don't like the rate or what the resources are spent on, that's something you take up with your outfit leadership. Not every outfit needs to do this, but it should be there for those that do want to use it.

Arcticus · 2012-06-12, 02:29 PM

A balance aspect of this game is that a player pays more resources in order to get the loadouts that can cause more damage and raise survivability. E.g., a MAX loadout would cost more than an LA loadout and that is fair since the MAX has advantages.

One thing regarding subsidies of player vehicles is that the subsidized player is receiving FULL XP at only partial cost to that player, with the rest of the outfit having to pay the subsidy.

Does this redistribution of XP to the resource-centric classes/vehicles dictate that less players in the outfit will want to play the lighter classes? If you're a specialized outfit, this isn't a concern, but it might be an issue for the more diversified outfits, specially the larger ones.

Again, I don't think resource subsidization is a problem; I think the XP skew might be. I'm definitely open to being convinced otherwise.

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Arcticus

Stardouser · 2012-06-12, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by Malorn

Loadout might get a bit too detailed. Roles/class are important to see though.

Simple map/minimap icon + #, with color-coded for squad, like PS1 only with an icon next to the number indicating the class. So I could open up my map and look and see that we have 3 guys watching Point A, a MAX, Medic, and Engineer. I don't need to ask them over voice, and I probably know the members well enough to know what loadouts they are using if I know the role they are in. If there's a specific problem like the MAX is dual-burster guarding indoors then that's something they should probably tell you and not something you should have to go dig up. But again, just by the role you probably know the configuration if you've played with the person any significant amount of time.

Well, part of the reason I said to do it by individual and squad was this - I personally would want to be able to filter the map to show a marker per squad leader, and only show individuals if they are unsquadded, to prevent map spam. But, in order for that to work, the squad leader would have to be able to designate on behalf of his whole squad what they are doing.

Is that even necessary though? How many outfit members need to be online before it's map spam for which seeing the squads of the outfit abstracted to squad leaders only would be helpful, how many outfit members can be comfortably displayed individually before it's too much? 50? 100? More? This also depends on map zoom levels too.

I would certainly want to be able to do this(be able to filter to represent squads by their leader only on the map) if you were going to have it for the entire empire though. Though, this topic was about outfits so that's a different topic.

**Malorn** · 2012-06-12, 02:43 PM

First, I have to say something I wanted to say since I first saw this thread subject...

ELECTROLYTES!

Ok on to non-silly things...

Originally Posted by Stardouser

Well, part of the reason I said to do it by individual and squad was this - I personally would want to be able to filter the map to show a marker per squad leader, and only show individuals if they are unsquadded, to prevent map spam. But, in order for that to work, the squad leader would have to be able to designate on behalf of his whole squad what they are doing.

I don't think you need anything special to have map filters. Filters are good. Sure, have a filter to show un-squadded, have a filter to only show squad leaders, have a filter to show certain classes. Lots of filter options.

PS1 had a waypoint that signified the "center" of the squad used to determine how much XP you earned, etc, could do something like that too in order to show where each outfit-led squad is, generally speaking.

GuyFawkes · 2012-06-12, 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by Malorn

So it's unfair for an outfit that heavily uses Galaxies to tax the people riding in them to pay for them and instead the Galaxy drivers should be the ones that always eat the cost?

Seems unfair to me that the pilot would always pay the bill and completely reasonable to have the 10 passengers all chip in 10-15 resources for the drop. As if dedicated galaxy pilots weren't hard enough to find, lets shaft them with the resource cost for supporting their outfit too! Support jobs are never fun, the least you can do is provide a way to absorb some of the pain and let the people that benefit from that support chip in.

If you don't like the rate or what the resources are spent on, that's something you take up with your outfit leadership. Not every outfit needs to do this, but it should be there for those that do want to use it.

Not sure if you read the full part of what i said. If the driver buys a galaxy and it costs him 1100 credits, and 10 people jump in for a ride , the driver gets 1000 credits back immediately , 100 for each passenger. If you are in an outfit , the initial cost of galaxy could be reduced to 900 if you lock it to outfit only.
Hell, if the galaxy pilot has some initiative, he could earn some extra resources taxing a few strays while you are all busy watching a hack timer

This way you dont 'tax' someone else in your outfit who may have flown around all night in the same scythe . Everyone gains resources since you are working together .

Im fully aware and understand what you mean , the drivers have to pay out big time to get a galaxy which everyone gets the benefit of. I just dislike the idea of a global tax system for a leader to have a bad day , kick people etc unless ofc they get a full refund. I prefer it the other way, you jump in a galaxy <cha-ching> 100 credits go from your pocket . Still a lot cheaper than getting other transport bar a quad , and much more organised.

ringring · 2012-06-12, 03:03 PM

Conductors on galaxies ... "I would have liked a ride but I can't afford the fare"

Being serious .... new players, if you have any in your outfit you probably want to put them in the galaxy to make sure they turn up at the right place at the right time. It maybe they are the very ones who are resource poor.

On the other hand the galaxies may be the type of craft that get shot out of the sky often.

Maybe the best solution is to manipulate the price downwards and balance with survivability (and don't have a new player flying your gal).

GuyFawkes · 2012-06-12, 03:19 PM

At the e3 event a quad cost like 100 , you would only be paying the equivalent of that to ride in a seat on a galaxy. no conductor lol.
At that price its no biggie , you would probably spend more having your quad blown up by mines over and over.
It dosent differentiate between an outfit or non outfit galaxy, so those who just like being a gal pilot arent discouraged from taxing other people.
Plus theres no drama if you pick a friend up and you get derided by your outfit for wasting 'fuel' on a non-member.
Last point, if you pay your 'ticket' and the pilot crashes into a tree over and over, you will think twice before riding again with them , and the cost then induces them to be more careful.