New Outfits Are Pointless - Page 4

robocpf1 · 2012-07-04, 07:46 PM

Something's wrong with those numbers Soyo, the Outfit Point max is currently at 10,000,000 (ten million). For GOTR, the number you have listed is 323 million - thirty times the max.

And, at the time we had 400 members (we now have over 1400, because we stopped purging the roster after the leaderboards died). So we had substantially less. Is there a decimal point I can't see somewhere in there?

Notturno · 2012-07-04, 08:11 PM

I held back on chiming in on the subject because I wasn't exactly sure what the discussion was even about, considering how derailed it became. After some clarification from the OP about what he meant, I feel more comfortable contributing to the conversation. At the very least, it's an interesting theoretical discussion.

The discussion of consolidating outfits into a few "mega outfits" kind of defeats the purpose of having an outfit system in the first place. When you assume that all individuals are bound together by faction loyalty and a desire to win, the idea of creating "mega outfits" to try and further enforce cohesion does not really seem like a logical step to me. I believe it's perfectly viable to be a small and/or new outfit and contribute just as much as someone who joins one of those theorized "mega outfits."

In terms of gaming communities, I think you have two different types of guilds out there; you have large communities and small communities. Typically you see them divided into "zerg" and "non-zerg," but for the sake of being politically correct we will use "large" and "small" as defining terms. While there are many other factors that determine community types, such as hardcore, casual, competitive, social, and others... well, it's simply easier to break them down into size differentiation for the sake of the argument I'm about to pose.

A large outfit has the benefit of having significant membership, which brings in a multitude of benefits; consistent and stable activity, plenty of available teams, a large social environment, and likely a defined structural membership hierarchy. These large groups tend to be forced to organize themselves, or risk imploding from the mass chaos that ensues from having too many members with no direction. This offers a lot of benefits in a game like PlanetSide, particularly in the ability to get things done. With continents that can sustain 600 individuals, being able to field a significant force from within a single outfit brings a lot of opportunity to capture bases. With enough of a coordinated "zerg" from a large outfit, chances are they will be able to overwhelm another force with their sheer numbers. This is not to say that they lack skill, but they just have a better coordinated effort due to a shared VOIP service and experience with each other.

Though, we have to remember that these large outfits suffer from their fair share of drawbacks as well. Large communities tend to suffer from cliques forming; this is typically done out of necessity due to VOIP becoming difficult to manage with too many individuals in a single room. What you ultimately end up with is a lot of smaller cliques part of a larger community, who may or may not get along with each other, or even know of each other for that matter. You create a divided community which has the potential to reach a breaking point, where that outfit is either unable to cooperate or sustain itself as a singular unit. You end up with many social shortcomings, specifically the inability to get to know each member on a personal level, and you end up with organizational issues stemming from the lack of social familiarity. It's not always an environment meant for everyone.

A small outfit tends to fill the gaps that the large outfits leave for many individuals. These small outfits often offer an intimate social setting where everyone is able to get to know each other on a personal level. This tends to breed more cooperation and cohesion within a game, as these are the people you will always be gaming with. You have a regular team that will always be playing together, which tends to function much better than a large community that has constantly rotating teams. You will eventually get to know everyone within your community and how to best work with their play styles. This form of consistent, intimate teamwork facilitates agile learning and better player evolution on both an individual and group level.

There are also a fair amount of drawbacks to having a small outfit. With small numbers, the absence of a few people can be deadly for activity and community persistence. With a few of the right people leaving, either temporarily or otherwise, you could end up with a deadly blow to the outfit and its entire structure. Even during the best of times, you run into issues in games like PlanetSide 2 where you simply cannot field enough people on an outfit level to accomplish certain goals. You have to reach for outside help or follow the general "zerg" of your faction to make any sort of impact. Your abilities amplify the motions of your faction, but never truly dictate the pace. You end up falling mercy to the will of your faction in some cases, where you simply lack the power to crawl out of a losing situation.

Personally, I tend to have a preference for smaller outfits. I've decided to form my own outfit, as I have a desire to be part of an outfit that's more closely knit and competitively minded. I'm sure there are other individuals who prefer to have a large social setting to participate in, which is a completely valid desire and no less viable than my own preference. It ultimately boils down to personal preference, and no individual or group should be able to dictate which preference is "better."

Large and small outfits both have their benefits and drawbacks. It's typically a matter of personal preference as to which you wish to participate in. The above was simply a small taste of what each type offers, as there are many other dynamics that influence the impact of an outfit, both within the game and outside of it. I could continue to go on, but it would simply become an unreadable wall of text that nobody would be willing to dive into. I'm sure I've already gone on too long as it is.

TL;DR: Large outfits and small outfits are both completely viable for their own reasons. Both bring benefits and drawbacks to the table, neither is better than the other. It's all about personal preference as to what you're looking for in a gaming community.

Mastachief · 2012-07-04, 08:18 PM

We have 10m outfit points with historically a 25-40 active member count. Even counting alts we have a mere 80 members

Smaller outfits own larger outfits, generally faster and better teamwork.

Natir · 2012-07-05, 12:26 AM

Originally Posted by Notturno

I held back on chiming in on the subject because I wasn't exactly sure what the discussion was even about, considering how derailed it became. After some clarification from the OP about what he meant, I feel more comfortable contributing to the conversation. At the very least, it's an interesting theoretical discussion.

The discussion of consolidating outfits into a few "mega outfits" kind of defeats the purpose of having an outfit system in the first place. When you assume that all individuals are bound together by faction loyalty and a desire to win, the idea of creating "mega outfits" to try and further enforce cohesion does not really seem like a logical step to me. I believe it's perfectly viable to be a small and/or new outfit and contribute just as much as someone who joins one of those theorized "mega outfits."

In terms of gaming communities, I think you have two different types of guilds out there; you have large communities and small communities. Typically you see them divided into "zerg" and "non-zerg," but for the sake of being politically correct we will use "large" and "small" as defining terms. While there are many other factors that determine community types, such as hardcore, casual, competitive, social, and others... well, it's simply easier to break them down into size differentiation for the sake of the argument I'm about to pose.

A large outfit has the benefit of having significant membership, which brings in a multitude of benefits; consistent and stable activity, plenty of available teams, a large social environment, and likely a defined structural membership hierarchy. These large groups tend to be forced to organize themselves, or risk imploding from the mass chaos that ensues from having too many members with no direction. This offers a lot of benefits in a game like PlanetSide, particularly in the ability to get things done. With continents that can sustain 600 individuals, being able to field a significant force from within a single outfit brings a lot of opportunity to capture bases. With enough of a coordinated "zerg" from a large outfit, chances are they will be able to overwhelm another force with their sheer numbers. This is not to say that they lack skill, but they just have a better coordinated effort due to a shared VOIP service and experience with each other.

Though, we have to remember that these large outfits suffer from their fair share of drawbacks as well. Large communities tend to suffer from cliques forming; this is typically done out of necessity due to VOIP becoming difficult to manage with too many individuals in a single room. What you ultimately end up with is a lot of smaller cliques part of a larger community, who may or may not get along with each other, or even know of each other for that matter. You create a divided community which has the potential to reach a breaking point, where that outfit is either unable to cooperate or sustain itself as a singular unit. You end up with many social shortcomings, specifically the inability to get to know each member on a personal level, and you end up with organizational issues stemming from the lack of social familiarity. It's not always an environment meant for everyone.

A small outfit tends to fill the gaps that the large outfits leave for many individuals. These small outfits often offer an intimate social setting where everyone is able to get to know each other on a personal level. This tends to breed more cooperation and cohesion within a game, as these are the people you will always be gaming with. You have a regular team that will always be playing together, which tends to function much better than a large community that has constantly rotating teams. You will eventually get to know everyone within your community and how to best work with their play styles. This form of consistent, intimate teamwork facilitates agile learning and better player evolution on both an individual and group level.

There are also a fair amount of drawbacks to having a small outfit. With small numbers, the absence of a few people can be deadly for activity and community persistence. With a few of the right people leaving, either temporarily or otherwise, you could end up with a deadly blow to the outfit and its entire structure. Even during the best of times, you run into issues in games like PlanetSide 2 where you simply cannot field enough people on an outfit level to accomplish certain goals. You have to reach for outside help or follow the general "zerg" of your faction to make any sort of impact. Your abilities amplify the motions of your faction, but never truly dictate the pace. You end up falling mercy to the will of your faction in some cases, where you simply lack the power to crawl out of a losing situation.

Personally, I tend to have a preference for smaller outfits. I've decided to form my own outfit, as I have a desire to be part of an outfit that's more closely knit and competitively minded. I'm sure there are other individuals who prefer to have a large social setting to participate in, which is a completely valid desire and no less viable than my own preference. It ultimately boils down to personal preference, and no individual or group should be able to dictate which preference is "better."

Large and small outfits both have their benefits and drawbacks. It's typically a matter of personal preference as to which you wish to participate in. The above was simply a small taste of what each type offers, as there are many other dynamics that influence the impact of an outfit, both within the game and outside of it. I could continue to go on, but it would simply become an unreadable wall of text that nobody would be willing to dive into. I'm sure I've already gone on too long as it is.

TL;DR: Large outfits and small outfits are both completely viable for their own reasons. Both bring benefits and drawbacks to the table, neither is better than the other. It's all about personal preference as to what you're looking for in a gaming community.

I used to talk to some of those guys in Global Agenda, bunch of really classy dudes. I'm happy to see them coming back for PlanetSide 2.

This. I like this guy.

Soyokaze · 2012-07-05, 03:44 AM

Originally Posted by robocpf1

Something's wrong with those numbers Soyo, the Outfit Point max is currently at 10,000,000 (ten million). For GOTR, the number you have listed is 323 million - thirty times the max.

And, at the time we had 400 members (we now have over 1400, because we stopped purging the roster after the leaderboards died). So we had substantially less. Is there a decimal point I can't see somewhere in there?

Just posted what I found. As far as I know, that's just an old screenshot someone took and put online. If I goofed any math, woops, but I believe that's all right. Unfortunately the point cap means that, at this point, the leaderboards are entirely useless to us.

Just to increase the sample sizes, here's another screenshot from the same user labled October 3rd

Aldman · 2012-07-05, 09:01 AM

I'll admit, I'm still perplexed by the people who think that all large outfits are "zergfits". Generally, I see the opposite. Smaller outfits are forced to fight together as a zerg moving out from a single facility because they can't pull together enough of their own members to launch a successful attack/defense elsewhere.

The exception to this is fast-response units, but they are just playing a mobile defense game where they re-secure friendly facilities. That's very different from an offensive strike.

Ambient · 2012-07-05, 04:31 PM

I'm perplexed as to why the broken-ass, out of date, buggy-as-hell, outfit leaderboards (or any data for that matter) from that original terrible PS site were even posted.

Also, 9/10 on this thread, definitely would participate in a community dividing topic again :P

Notturno · 2012-07-05, 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by Aldman

I'll admit, I'm still perplexed by the people who think that all large outfits are "zergfits". Generally, I see the opposite. Smaller outfits are forced to fight together as a zerg moving out from a single facility because they can't pull together enough of their own members to launch a successful attack/defense elsewhere.

The exception to this is fast-response units, but they are just playing a mobile defense game where they re-secure friendly facilities. That's very different from an offensive strike.

Perhaps I can shed some light on the mentality?

I believe many individuals refer to large outfits as zergs, or as you put it "zergfits," because of the implied lower standard of membership.

I think in a general sense, people perceive large gaming communities as being of lower quality than smaller communities. It's likely this is because people see a huge amount of members, and assume it is easy for anyone to get in simply because the community wants as many numbers as they can muster together. It's essentially the mentality that to acquire huge membership, you have to lower your standards to amass that amount of people in a reasonable period of time. This is opposed to the small community mentality, where groups are highly selective of the types of individuals they admit into their communities.

What ties hand in hand with this mentality is that when you bring in so many individuals, there's no way that they can all be "skilled" like a smaller outfit can be. When in the context of a gaming community, "zerg" is generally the implication that a community amassed a ton of members with no skill in the hopes of overwhelming other groups with their numbers. This isn't necessarily true, and I feel it's more of an excuse used by bad players to deflect blame away from themselves.

This is just what I've gathered from my experiences with other people. I do not think in any way that the above is empirically true.

Aldman · 2012-07-05, 08:28 PM

Well, I think that everyone is going to learn a fundamental truth of Planetside: there are no good or bad players, there are team players and then there is everyone else. If your small outfit functions as a cohesive unit, it can get things done. If your 600+ player outfit has the skill and infrastructure to function as a cohesive unit (or a series of cohesive units), they will be just as successful.

Those outfits that just run around trying to advance their K/D ratios or jump into random combat will not be effective. There's no other way to say it.

BorisGT · 2012-07-05, 10:03 PM

Triple digit player pool didn't get you guys a battlekeep any faster in AoC.

Small outfits have a place. If your outfit is large enough that you need a command structure that has people in different channels with "radio silence" then you may as well have multiple smaller outfits. The net effect is the same as long as everyone, large outfit or small, communicates in some way.

ArcIyte · 2012-07-06, 12:35 AM

The most effective Planetside 2 outfit will consist of an active, skilled core group of players (around the same size and caliber of a "leetfit"), with a big roster of recruits willing to listen to orders, and good organizational skills to make it fast and efficient

Small outfits will have a harder time than they did in PS1. There are going to be more players per continent, bases will require multiple areas to be taken and held simultaneously, and base layouts are not going to be one long twisting chokepoint corridor.

If you want to play the game to take bases and actually beat the enemy, you will have to either be a part of, or work with, larger outfits.

If you don't care about that, then it doesn't really matter what you do. Set your own goal of fun I guess. Just don't be surprised when your smaller outfit drowns when you decide to leave the kiddie pool.

Baneblade · 2012-07-06, 12:49 AM

An outfit is only as good as its worst member. That is Rule #1 in PlanetSide.

Soyokaze · 2012-07-06, 01:10 AM

Basically agree with all of that stuff.

Except for Battlekeeps. What are Battlekeeps? Some stupid crap they introduced once everyone had left after Core Combat, like BFRs, planets, & such?

ArcIyte · 2012-07-06, 02:39 AM

Originally Posted by Baneblade

An outfit is only as good as its worst member. That is Rule #1 in PlanetSide.

that is retarded

Soyokaze · 2012-07-06, 02:54 AM

I can see it making sense in that your membership standards will determine your effectiveness, which I whole heartidly agree with.

It's not about # of members, it's about # of quality members. If they don't add to your effectiveness, they can only subtract from your organization.